I tried not to embarrass Sam Morril.
To understand how hard this was, for me, I should start at the beginning. Which was: On April 15, I went to a comedy show. The opener was one Sam Morril. And his opener, as per my notes, went as follows: “My ex-girlfriend never made me wear a condom. That’s huge. She was on the pill.” Pause. “Ambien.”
When Sam Morril tells a rape joke, he pauses for a moment, then says some variation on the phrase “that was a rape joke.” He invariably sounds both proud and delighted. I should know. I heard him do it several times.
And it went on. He saw a woman fighting with her boyfriend, and something bad happened to her, and she said it wasn’t funny, but it was. He bothered a girl at a bar, and her friend said that the girl wasn’t interested in him, so he eventually paid someone to punch the woman who had stopped him from hitting on her friend. (Sam Morril is apparently a big fan of stories about women getting physically hurt when they object to the concept of having sex with Sam Morril.) It wasn’t just the occasional rape joke, or the occasional self-congratulation for telling the rape joke, that made the set so exhausting. It was just the steady, relentless, predictable drone of a man whose only punchline was some variation on “I do not like women.” At one point, I flipped him off. Then I flipped him off again. Then my face started developing a nervous twitch. And then we hit the night’s highlight:
“Hey, I’m attracted to black women. Yeah, I had sex with one once.” (Once!) “It was kind of awkward, because the whole time I was fucking her, she kept using the N-word. Yeah, the whole time, she just kept yelling out, no!”
At that point, much like any of Sam Morril’s conscious ex-girlfriends, I just fastened my eyes to the ceiling and waited for him to finish amusing himself.
So I told my editor I was going to confront him. Something big, and rude, and embarrassing. I’d send him an e-mail – maybe I’d just quote a bunch of rape statistics, and ask him to rate how funny they were on a scale of 1 to 10 – and I’d wait to see if he responded.
I had a reason for being invested in his response. Last summer, the entire Internet had been set aflame by comedian Daniel Tosh essentially threatening a female audience member with rape for objecting to his rape jokes. She had a blog; she used the blog to relate what he’d said; Daniel Tosh, who had an entire show about the goddamn Internet, was apparently shocked and mortally wounded that someone in his audience had a blog.
Which would have been obnoxious enough on its own, without the stand-up comedians of the world rallying around Tosh. And yet, rally they did: Patton Oswalt referred to the woman as “some idiotic blogger,” and lamented that Tosh had been made to apologize to the woman he’d wished would be “raped by like two guys.” Dane Cook helpfully informed those who were offended by Tosh that “it’s best for everyone if you just kill yourself.” (After you get raped by the two guys, I guess. It’s a remarkably rough night Cook and Tosh had planned for that woman.) Even the normally reasonable and intelligent Louis C.K. got sucked into defending Tosh’s comments – although, thankfully, he didn’t go the route of Doug Stanhope, who hashtagged his Tweet about the controversy, simply, #FuckThatPig.
He was, yes, referring to the woman that Tosh had threatened. Because this is how it goes, between female comedy fans – especially feminists – and male stand-up comics. Let’s be entirely clear here: These are grown men who get paid money to stand in front of an audience and say, quite literally, whatever they want, as long as they think it’s funny. And yet when women talk back, especially if it’s not flattering, we’re “idiots,” pigs, better off raped, or better off dead. These guys grow up, go into entertainment, and then react to the presence of an audience as if it’s a form of armed robbery. But female comedy fans exist. We go to shows. In the age of social media, our microphones can be as big as any comic’s, or bigger. Why shouldn’t they hear what we have to say? More to the point: Why do they still act as if it’s avoidable?
Because they do. One year and approximately seventy thousand blog posts later, people were still hiring Sam Morril. Because, you know. What could possibly go wrong?
So, I wrote to my editor, I was going to do it differently. I was going to give him no possible chance to claim that he’d been ambushed, or stabbed in the back. I was going to find him. I was going to tell him exactly who I was – “My name’s Sady Doyle. I’m a feminist journalist and pop culture critic, and I attended your show on April 13,” is how I opened my first e-mail — and I was going to tell him that I planned to write about his show. I was going to do this whole thing as fairly as possible. While still, you know, planning to write an entire piece specifically for the fun of humiliating the guy in public.
He wrote back.
Lets do it, Sady! Shoot me the questions. Thanks for thinking of me.
Best,
Sam
It was at this point that the story changed. He’d responded. In fact, he’d responded almost right away. There was a chance I could actually talk to the guy. And so I started to have doubts about my initial premise. A list of rape stats and an invitation to rate them on the scale of humor: I could do that. I could send that. I could print that. It would have been splashy, and it would have made my point, and – moreover – I was absolutely certain that he would be unable to respond to it. He would look like a coward. I would look like a hero.
But it would have been a lie. It would have been worse than that: It would have been shitty journalism. I could game the system, pre-determine the outcome, give Sam Morril something he absolutely couldn’t respond to without looking like an asshole, and absolutely couldn’t ignore without looking weak, and then reveal to my readers – as if it were a surprise – that I’d managed to make the guy look bad. I would have looked brave to the outside world, while knowing deep down that I’d risked absolutely nothing. In point of fact, I would have been no better than a stand-up comic bullying an audience member for not laughing at his jokes. To do this thing right – to do it fair – I had to come to the table with the presumption of good faith. I didn’t have to pitch the guy softballs. But I had to give Sam Morril an honest chance to write back.
So I sat down. And I wrote the nicest e-mail I could manage.
Hi Sam —
Thanks for responding so quickly! And I’m sorry that I didn’t do the same. The fact is, I have one main question, and it is: What’s with all the rape jokes?
I know the relationship between feminists and stand-up comics can be notably contentious on the rape joke issue. (Think Tosh.) And to be blunt, I sent you the e-mail because your set made me really mad. That’s probably what you were going for. But instead of firing shots at each other from the safety and comfort of our personal Twitters, maybe it’s worthwhile to talk about it. This conversation tends to get stuck in one repeating pattern: Feminists say rape jokes are offensive, comics say they have the right to offend people, and we just keep repeating the same lines from that point forward. So, even though I would expect you won’t like some of these questions, maybe this is an opportunity to open a dialogue.
One in five women reports being sexually assaulted. For women of color, that number is much higher; one study says that over 50% of young black women are sexually assaulted. (One of your jokes: “I’m attracted to black women. I had sex with one once. The whole time I was fucking her, she kept using the n-word. Yeah, the whole time, she was yelling NO!”) On your Twitter, you warned people that they shouldn’t attend one particular set of yours if they’d recently had a miscarriage or been raped. So, like: Are you comfortable excluding that big a chunk of the population from your set? I always wonder this, about comedians who tell a lot of rape jokes. You presumably know that it happens. Do you know that it happens this often? Is it a realistic possibility, in your mind, that not just one but several of the women in your audience have experienced it?
It’s not just that. An even higher percentage of the female population, 1 in 4, reports having been assaulted by a partner. 30% of all murdered women are murdered by their partners. To be blunt: You make jokes about hitting women. You also make quite a few jokes about killing them. One extended bit was about getting someone to hit a girl who didn’t want you bothering her friend, because you “couldn’t” yourself. On your Twitter (paraphrasing here): “I would never hit a woman. Or push one. Out of the way of a moving bus.” The basic punchline in your set was, the girl got hit, and you caused it. The punchline in your Tweet is that a woman gets killed. The punchline in your extended series of Tweets about Pistorius: Girl gets killed.
But in your Tweet about the Boston Marathon, you write that “this violence is infuriating.” What’s the difference between the violence perpetrated at the Boston Marathon and the violence that will affect about one-quarter of all women during their lifetimes, and account for no small number of deaths? That’s not a set-up for a joke. I just want to know. Why is only one of those infuriating?
Finally, Sam: The two rape jokes I counted in your set weren’t just about the concept of rape. They were jokes in which the punchline was that you raped a woman. (That didn’t happen with any of the other comics on stage, even though I remember at least one other joke about domestic violence, and the host did a long riff about rape.) And then a story in which the punchline was that you indirectly assaulted a woman. Given these numbers, what’s the benefit of presenting yourself to an audience — which is likely to contain some women, and some assault victims — as someone with an interest in raping and hitting women? Even as a joke? Where’s your pay-off there?
And I want to stress: I actually do want to hear what you have to say here. People keep having the same fight, and nothing changes on either side. Maybe this is a chance to actually have a conversation. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
S.
To date, we have received no response from Sam Morril.
Photo by visual.dichotomy , licensed under Creative Commons Attribution Generic 2.0 license.
I don’t like idiots on TV, so I don’t watch Fox News. I don’t like twangy voices, so I don’t listen to country music. This is how free speech/expression and choice works. He has the right to say what he wants on stage. You have the right to see him or not. He doesn’t owe you or anybody else an explanation. If you don’t like his art (yes, “art”), don’t go see him. The end.
Kevin – Let me get this straight, you posted a complaint about how people shouldn’t complain about what others say/write because they have the option to ignore it. Did someone force you to read this blog at gunpoint? Why didn’t you just ignore it?
But more importantly, rape culture isn’t something you can just ignore. This crap happens all the time. It’s not just stand-up comedians, it’s on tv, the radio… you can’t watch the news for more than a few days before some rape-apologist says something ill-informed, condescending, or offensive. Yes, these people have the right to say whatever they want. And we have the right to call them out and ask why they are purposefully being shitty people.
“Free speech” also extends to critiquing, questioning, or commenting on how others have exercised their freedom of speech, Kevin.
Kevin- He has the right to say whatever he wants, and people have the right to not like it, to be offended by it, and inform him of this and try and help him learn.
How much time has passed between your sending him the letter and the publication of this piece? This is written to make his non-response seem telling, but that unanswered question is making it have less of an impact.
It’s hard to “not go see him” when he’s the crappy opener of like four comics and it’s rude to attend late.
Kevin, I agree completely. He doesn’t owe her an explanation and she can skip his shows if she doesn’t like him.
But she has the same free speech rights to ask him, in a remarkably candid, restrained, and respectful way, why he does it. Even he seemed to agree (“Lets do it, Sady! Shoot me the questions.”)
I would defend his right to his comedy (which sounds abhorrent) equally strongly as her right to challenge him on it. Free speech doesn’t mean someone won’t fire some free speech right back at you.
Sady, that’s a great letter, and I’m with you 100%. I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for that response though. Which is sad.
christopher: yeah, the loudest ‘free speech’ proponents often forget that it’s not a right that makes one untouchable. It is a right and a responsibility, and others are free to criticize what you say.
This whole thing is bullshit. Daniel Tosh did not “plan to rape two women.” He made a joke at people who were heckling him and interrupting his show to decide which jokes he is allowed to tell. Rape jokes are not the same thing as rape–in fact, rape jokes do not work as transgressive humor unless the audience thinks rape is a bad thing. You couldn’t tell a rape joke in 1955 because people wouldn’t understand what the joke is.
The root of this is that you were victimized at some point in your life, you’re angry at the world, and you are super-jealous of people who are able to enjoy themselves. You don’t object to the “rape” part, you object to the “joke” part. You think that because you are in pain, no one else is allowed to enjoy anything. Instead of getting therapy for what happened to you, you’re taking it out on the rest of us and trying to drag us down to your joyless, perpetually angry level. I assure you it won’t work and you will be happier if you get your own issues treated.
You didn’t write when you have sent your last Email so we don’t know for how long you haven’t gotten a response.
Yes, and the audience (especially given the nature of the comedian as described here) will almost certainly contain some men who are disposed to assault and rape. And to paraphrase a quote which you’ve doubtless seen before from a famous blog post, “And those guys? They think you’re on their side.”
They were rape jokes. Not rapes. It seems like this author went to a comedy club to take things seriously.. and then lashed out at the person.. because she thought it would make a good column.
If you’re really upset about the problems in the world.. why not write about them instead of some guy telling jokes?
“What’s the difference between the violence perpetrated at the Boston Marathon and the violence that will affect about one-quarter of all women during their lifetimes, and account for no small number of deaths?”
The difference is the Boston Marathon violence actually happened, and despite your sleight-of-hand attempt to conflate them, a joke is not the same thing as actual sexual violence.
I find it incredibly presumptuous for the vocal minority of humorless joke police to speak on behalf of all women, all feminists, or all rape victims. Most people in those groups know the difference between a joke and an actual rape. Don’t hijack them into your anti-fun agenda.
Can’t believe people are still go to comedy shows to be offended and then overreact. You can’t just rule out jokes from sensitive topics: racist jokes, cultural jokes, ageist jokes, fat jokes, political jokes, religious jokes, natural disaster jokes, ableist jokes, and on and on and on. It’s hard to come up with any sort of joke that wouldn’t cross the boundary of sensitivity for someone out there. Part of the reason these jokes are funny to people is because they’re supposed to strike a nerve by portraying serious topics in lighthearted or absurd ways.
Consider a comedian who tells rape jokes and another who never mentions rape because of you: Which one of the two raises more awareness for rape issues?
This is my new favorite thing on the internet. So funny that so many white dude comedians think they’re speaking truth to power when, well … we have new exhibit A for why that’s not the case. In fact, men like Sam Morril here are too chickenshit to speak truth to power so they invent an all-powerful (and all-fictional) “PC police” to score points against because they know they won’t get pushback, either from their white dude audiences or the white dude-run networks they want to get comedy specials on.
Comedians like Sam Morril here cast themselves as brave First Amendment warriors, but I don’t see them in jail cells for coming out against war crimes (like Bradley Manning or John Kiriakou), or losing their jobs for coming out against Bradley Manning’s treatment (like PJ Crowley). I don’t see them getting fired from MSNBC for coming out against the Iraq War (like Phil Donahue) or from CNN for suggesting we don’t take war seriously enough (like Ashleigh Banfield). I don’t see them getting discharged from the military for coming out on Rachel Maddow, then getting arrested for protesting it (like Dan Choi). I don’t see them getting pepper sprayed at UC Davis. I don’t see them losing opportunities, including possibly a Comedy Central special, for criticizing Tosh (like Jamie Kilstein). I don’t see them getting rape threats on a daily basis for being feminists who write feminist things on the internet (like basically every feminist on the internet).
As far as I can tell, all these pathetic dudes ever defend is the status quo. The racist, misogynist status quo. And they get TV shows for it, and then if someone criticizes them for marginalizing people who are already marginalized, they wear the criticism as some kind of red badge of courage. Real brave. Real edgy.
This guy can go to hell.
Hi Hanan & Tracy —
Your questions about when I sent the e-mail are totally fair. I wrote the first e-mail, asking him if I could send questions, on April 20, and let him know when my deadline was. I sent the questions themselves on April 23. On April 28, I followed up to let him know I was close to deadline (which I’d told him was “about a week” on April 20). I wrote the piece and sent it to my editor on April 29, and wrote the second draft May 1. So it’s been about 11 or 12 days since the questions themselves.
S.
Sady has every right to be disgusted at rape jokes. Kevin here is a bit confused about the notion of freedom to say whatever you like. If I don’t like Fox News, as Kevin wrote, yes, it is true that simply not watching it is the average apathetic reaction of an ordinary person, and that’s what most people actually do. But that’s not what all people SHOULD do. Some individuals choose to go a notch higher than the ordinary, and these are the people who end up making a difference. Guys like Jon Stewart, who did not write an email to complain to Fox News, but made an entire career out of savaging the network on a daily basis, exposing their folly and showing millions around the world – while making them laugh – that Fox News are nothing more than a bunch of ignorant, racist, assholes. The joke became on them.
That is why I think Sady was too nice in her email to this comedian, and was very naïve in expecting an answer. Why does Sam Morril do it, Sady wanted to know? Seriously? For God’s sake, because it sells. Welcome to the 21st century, where food makers shove shit into our bellies, bankers screw the world economy, and big pharma rips off cancer patients as poorer ones are left to die: to make money at any price.
And no, making light of a criminal activity and using it as fodder to induce cheap laughs should not be passable as free speech. While I would not agree with legislating against it (as the Jews have coerced some countries into doing when it came to their lot), there are nevertheless codes of decency to which society should self-police its members into adhering, without necessarily imposing a penalty. This is already in place for other crimes, and with more outrage like Sady’s, rape jokes would soon become equally repulsive and unacceptable.
Today, in the same comedy club as Sam Morril’s, can you make jokes about raping little children? I doubt anyone would laugh. Is it free speech to quip about Ku Klux Klan lynchings? Can you go on stage and make Holocaust jokes (are you even legally allowed to do that)? Heard the one about the Auschwitz inmate who walked into a bar? I didn’t think so.
Sady should not lighten up, as some have suggested. She should become relentless. With enough dedication, like Jon Stewart, she may just be able to make a difference.
Saying that this is “just jokes” is missing the point. The author of this article, and anybody who reads it, understands that he was making a joke out of rape and not actually committing rape. The issue is that this keeps happening and when women say “you know, I didn’t enjoy that…” they get called names, receive rape and death threats, or get a flood of hatemail and nasty comments to defend some guy who stood on a stage and said things like “While I was fucking this chick she kept shouting NO”.
Sam Morrils has -every right- to be an asshole. He has -every right- to offend his audience. But his audience has -every right- to talk about why they didn’t like his set and they have -every right- to tell people to not support him if the people listening are also offended by such humor.
A few months back, a comedy website wrote something horribly racist and sexist about a little kid. It was gross. I used to enjoy that site and I haven’t been back since. Because I realized that we have differences of opinion about what is right.
I don’t know who the fuck Sam Morril is, but he’s not on a list of comedians I have no interest in giving money to. I like comedy that uses wit and tact. I like comedy that challenges systems of privilege not exploit them.
And to the poster who said that “making rape jokes only works because people know rape is bad.” Um. Where in “While I was fucking this chick she kept using the N word. She kept shouting no!” does it say rape is bad? It doesn’t. It plays on your expectation of racism. You’re imagining her calling him nigga and him feeling awkward but then POW “rape is awesome and totally something I do!” This is not the same as poking fun at rape.
Sady, I thought you were incredibly respectful. I wish he would have followed through on the conversation. I think it’s great that you reminded him of the sad fact of the reality is that so many people are raped every day and it’s only safe to assume that they are in his audience and in his life. His words have consequences. Too bad he isn’t “man enough” to deal with them.
One correction: Louis CK never claimed to have defended Daniel Tosh.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-july-16-2012/louis-c-k-
Great article, and thank you for standing up to this guy. One thing, though: Louis CK did not stick up for Daniel Tosh. His tweet was not related to the incident in question. This was explained via interview on the Daily Show.
Sam’s response can be found here: https://www.facebook.com/sam.morril/posts/10100191249112069
I stopped reading after you started incorrectly referring to the Daniel Tosh incident because you OBVIOUSLY didn’t care to read up on the case and how that blogger manipulated her story on her blog to elicit pity because she got her feelings hurt. Why the fuck is it only ever women complaining about comedians? Seriously, grow some thicker skin and stop snooping around for drama.
I appreciated this article. And I appreciate your stand. He isn’t and will never be funny. I work with a guy who does a comedy show and has for the past 12+ years. You wont hear anything like that at his show ever! It’s the only ALL Clean show anywhere that I know of. So thank you for speaking out for those who can’t or are afraid too.
Melody
To Kevin and “common sense” – chill and stop overreacting! Sady’s article is just a blog post! Get over it!
You lost me WAY back there in the beginning at “goddamn Internet”. Was that adjective really necessary? Now who’s trying to go for shock/ edgy? It is SO passe, we get it.
Same thing with comics, they think they’re being edgy when they use it, just to be tuned out for the most part.
@Kevin… and this is why you can only find him at sleezy open mics. You will never EVER see him on nation, local or probably even cable TV
Hey all, This was Sam Morill’s response posted to Facebook. I think that my posting it in the comments is the only attention it will get on here:
First, let me say that I do not condone rape, and it is never my intention to write a joke that upsets people. I never write a joke thinking, “this’ll show ‘em.” I’m a comedian.
Making jokes about terrible things is part of what comics do and when you paraphrase jokes on very delicate topics, you’re stripping them of their meaning and irony, the things that makes them funny. In my N word joke you referred to, you decided to leave out the punchline, which is pretty important when you’re quoting a joke, especially about such a sensitive topic. The punchline is that the crowd thinks: “We thought he was going to say the N word, then thank God…It’s just a rape joke.” It’s a moment of relief, but really it’s much worse. It’s a commentary on political correctness, not an approval of rape. Your reaction compounds the irony. My joke on political correctness brings out the political correctness police. You know who finds that joke funny? My female manager, my ex-girlfriend (we’re still friends), and my mom, all feminists.
You mention the “reasonable” and “intelligent” Louis CK. Well, Louis has plenty of jokes about rape. Ever heard the one? “You should never rape a woman…Unless you want to have sex with her and she wont let you…Then what other choice do you have?”
Many female comics joke about rape as well. Sarah Silverman has one: “I was raped by a doctor, which is so bittersweet for a Jewish girl.” Do you understand that neither Louis nor Sarah approves of rape? Do find it necessary to send them the pages of rape statistics that you sent me?
Rape, fart, dick, murder, genocide, etc. jokes have been a part of comedy going back to 400 BC Greece. I’m jealous that Aristophanes got to live blogger-free, without people text messaging through his plays. You conveniently left out the sentences in your initial first email where you wrote, “you really stood out from the other comics.” You wanted to engage with me so you pretended to be a fan by complimenting me. Very tricky!
You completely misquoted a story I told to portray me as a misogynist or worse. There are lots of bad people out there who do evil things. I think your time would be better spent attacking them. Most of them have no sense of irony either. You clearly were not interested in having a conversation. For some reason, you chose me to ambush, and spun this article in a manipulative way.
Here’s a quote from your article: “Let’s be entirely clear here: These are grown men who get paid money to stand in front of an audience and say, quite literally, whatever they want, as long as they think it’s funny.” Yes, that’s what comedians do.
You say, “…And yet when women talk back, especially if it’s not flattering, we’re “idiots.” “ Sady, this is not a gender issue….Men who talk back during a performance are idiots too. Stand-up comedy is a performance, not a discourse. There are bouncers there whose sole purpose is to make sure our performance goes uninterrupted. Comedy is an art form. We get paid to say whatever we want, and I’ve earned that right to do so on good stages by putting in work year after year, and proving I can do it well. You have the right not to listen.
I got a Tweet from one of your readers 2 days ago saying, “someday I hope a man forcefully penetrates your asshole with their veiny cock. Rape jokes won’t be quite as funny after that.” Also, “or maybe your mother gets raped, or little sister. I don’t think you understand the culture you’re adding too.” Should I take that threat seriously? Do you condone this? Is that the kind of behavior you’re trying to motivate?
You quoted a Tweet of mine about the Boston Marathon saying, “This kind of violence in infuriating.” Yeah, it is. I think rape is awful too. Comics go to dark places to find jokes sometimes. That’s what we do. Woody Allen says, “Comedy is tragedy plus time.” I was horrified by the Boston Marathon and I still am, but I have jokes commenting on the subject now because I’m a comic and that’s my job. I say, “This Boston Marathon has made me very sad…It made me realize that my brother and I don’t do anything together anymore.” Do you think making a joke about this event means I approve of terrorism? (By the way, a couple of Boston comics have told me it’s a very good joke.)
You may hate my jokes. Well, then don’t listen to them. You have a right to your opinion. The bottom line is: I know more about comedy than you. I know more about funny than you do, and nothing was ever made funnier by political correctness.
I know a ton of funny people and I’ve never heard: “you know who we need to punch up this material? A blogger who doesn’t get irony.” We don’t disagree about rape. We don’t disagree about terrorism. We disagree about comedy. Thanks for your input.
This is insane. If you don’t like a comedian, then don’t go see him. This is very “thought police.” It is also very self-righteous to blow this guy up just because you don’t like what he is doing.
The right move is to #1: leave if you are offended #2: complain to the club manager (that’s also a stupid thing to do) and #3: go home and move on.
Everybody wants to use the internet to try to force their agenda on others. That is more offensive than some hacky rape jokes.
How much time did you give him to respond? It was clearly less than two weeks. Did you follow up with him? How is this “being fair”? Just curious, I thought your e-mail to him was respectful and it’s great that you’re opening up a conversation… but you know you killed it by calling him out in this way, right?
Hey, I’ve seen Sam a lot, living here in NYC and doing stand up myself. Here’s an idea, if you don;’t like the material, go find the manager or booker and let them know, or get up and slowly walk out and then return when the offending comic is done… DO NOT RESPOND TO THE COMIC WHEN YOU WALK OUT, and they will ask you and point out that you are “walking” “walking” an audience is always in a comics mind, but coming back gets under their skin….just don’t interact…its an argument you won’t win….
Sam Morril is a hilarious comic. I’ve seen him perform many times and laughed my ass off each and every time. And you know what? I’ve been raped. Yup. It’s true. But I also have a sense of humor and can tell a joke from a point of view. He’s a comic for God sake! Sam is making light of the issue not condoning it. Making fun of a tragedy is what makes it not so heavy. It helps the pain to be released. I’m so sick of bloggers with no sense of humor defending the rape “victim”. You should be defending freedom of speech instead.
Here is Sam Morril’s response, via his Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/sam.morril/posts/10100191249112069
My response to Sady Doyle’s article about me:
First, let me say that I do not condone rape, and it is never my intention to write a joke that upsets people. I never write a joke thinking, “this’ll show ‘em.” I’m a comedian.
Making jokes about terrible things is part of what comics do and when you paraphrase jokes on very delicate topics, you’re stripping them of their meaning and irony, the things that makes them funny. In my N word joke you referred to, you decided to leave out the punchline, which is pretty important when you’re quoting a joke, especially about such a sensitive topic. The punchline is that the crowd thinks: “We thought he was going to say the N word, then thank God…It’s just a rape joke.” It’s a moment of relief, but really it’s much worse. It’s a commentary on political correctness, not an approval of rape. Your reaction compounds the irony. My joke on political correctness brings out the political correctness police. You know who finds that joke funny? My female manager, my ex-girlfriend (we’re still friends), and my mom, all feminists.
You mention the “reasonable” and “intelligent” Louis CK. Well, Louis has plenty of jokes about rape. Ever heard the one? “You should never rape a woman…Unless you want to have sex with her and she wont let you…Then what other choice do you have?”
Many female comics joke about rape as well. Sarah Silverman has one: “I was raped by a doctor, which is so bittersweet for a Jewish girl.” Do you understand that neither Louis nor Sarah approves of rape? Do find it necessary to send them the pages of rape statistics that you sent me?
Rape, fart, dick, murder, genocide, etc. jokes have been a part of comedy going back to 400 BC Greece. I’m jealous that Aristophanes got to live blogger-free, without people text messaging through his plays. You conveniently left out the sentences in your initial first email where you wrote, “you really stood out from the other comics.” You wanted to engage with me so you pretended to be a fan by complimenting me. Very tricky!
You completely misquoted a story I told to portray me as a misogynist or worse. There are lots of bad people out there who do evil things. I think your time would be better spent attacking them. Most of them have no sense of irony either. You clearly were not interested in having a conversation. For some reason, you chose me to ambush, and spun this article in a manipulative way.
Here’s a quote from your article: “Let’s be entirely clear here: These are grown men who get paid money to stand in front of an audience and say, quite literally, whatever they want, as long as they think it’s funny.” Yes, that’s what comedians do.
You say, “…And yet when women talk back, especially if it’s not flattering, we’re “idiots.” “ Sady, this is not a gender issue….Men who talk back during a performance are idiots too. Stand-up comedy is a performance, not a discourse. There are bouncers there whose sole purpose is to make sure our performance goes uninterrupted. Comedy is an art form. We get paid to say whatever we want, and I’ve earned that right to do so on good stages by putting in work year after year, and proving I can do it well. You have the right not to listen.
I got a Tweet from one of your readers 2 days ago saying, “someday I hope a man forcefully penetrates your asshole with their veiny cock. Rape jokes won’t be quite as funny after that.” Also, “or maybe your mother gets raped, or little sister. I don’t think you understand the culture you’re adding too.” Should I take that threat seriously? Do you condone this? Is that the kind of behavior you’re trying to motivate?
You quoted a Tweet of mine about the Boston Marathon saying, “This kind of violence in infuriating.” Yeah, it is. I think rape is awful too. Comics go to dark places to find jokes sometimes. That’s what we do. Woody Allen says, “Comedy is tragedy plus time.” I was horrified by the Boston Marathon and I still am, but I have jokes commenting on the subject now because I’m a comic and that’s my job. I say, “This Boston Marathon has made me very sad…It made me realize that my brother and I don’t do anything together anymore.” Do you think making a joke about this event means I approve of terrorism? (By the way, a couple of Boston comics have told me it’s a very good joke.)
You may hate my jokes. Well, then don’t listen to them. You have a right to your opinion. The bottom line is: I know more about comedy than you. I know more about funny than you do, and nothing was ever made funnier by political correctness.
I know a ton of funny people and I’ve never heard: “you know who we need to punch up this material? A blogger who doesn’t get irony.” We don’t disagree about rape. We don’t disagree about terrorism. We disagree about comedy. Thanks for your input.
This author obviously knows very little about the stand-up comedy scene. I won’t comment on whether comedians should or shouldn’t tell rape jokes. Why they tell them, however, is pretty simple. They get a niche. They get a tag. Instead of being ignored, Morril is getting publicity as “the rape joke guy.” People who like rape jokes now know that Sam is telling them. This article benefits him.
Once a comedian makes a name for himself as “that (insert joke theme) guy”, then it is important to branch out so you don’t look one dimensional. Still, having a gimmick can be useful.
Sam did respond to this blog post and he very thoroughly addressed the issue.
Sady- You are as bad a writer as you are a listener.
Sady, well written and I am glad you took the high road. So many people are missing the point of this article, which is so clearly shown in their aggressive responses (one typical reaction when someone feels uncomfortable is an aggressive lash out – verbal, written or otherwise). One day, I hope, that as more people bring awareness to misogynist behaviors, that we will see change. Thank you. It’s brave to put yourself out there from a feminist (I would also argue “humanist”) perspective when so many people are sitting protected behind their monitors waiting to bash people who speak uncomfortable truths.
Sam’s Response:
My response to Sady Doyle’s article about me:
First, let me say that I do not condone rape, and it is never my intention to write a joke that upsets people. I never write a joke thinking, “this’ll show ‘em.” I’m a comedian.
Making jokes about terrible things is part of what comics do and when you paraphrase jokes on very delicate topics, you’re stripping them of their meaning and irony, the things that makes them funny. In my N word joke you referred to, you decided to leave out the punchline, which is pretty important when you’re quoting a joke, especially about such a sensitive topic. The punchline is that the crowd thinks: “We thought he was going to say the N word, then thank God…It’s just a rape joke.” It’s a moment of relief, but really it’s much worse. It’s a commentary on political correctness, not an approval of rape. Your reaction compounds the irony. My joke on political correctness brings out the political correctness police. You know who finds that joke funny? My female manager, my ex-girlfriend (we’re still friends), and my mom, all feminists.
You mention the “reasonable” and “intelligent” Louis CK. Well, Louis has plenty of jokes about rape. Ever heard the one? “You should never rape a woman…Unless you want to have sex with her and she wont let you…Then what other choice do you have?”
Many female comics joke about rape as well. Sarah Silverman has one: “I was raped by a doctor, which is so bittersweet for a Jewish girl.” Do you understand that neither Louis nor Sarah approves of rape? Do find it necessary to send them the pages of rape statistics that you sent me?
Rape, fart, dick, murder, genocide, etc. jokes have been a part of comedy going back to 400 BC Greece. I’m jealous that Aristophanes got to live blogger-free, without people text messaging through his plays. You conveniently left out the sentences in your initial first email where you wrote, “you really stood out from the other comics.” You wanted to engage with me so you pretended to be a fan by complimenting me. Very tricky!
You completely misquoted a story I told to portray me as a misogynist or worse. There are lots of bad people out there who do evil things. I think your time would be better spent attacking them. Most of them have no sense of irony either. You clearly were not interested in having a conversation. For some reason, you chose me to ambush, and spun this article in a manipulative way.
Here’s a quote from your article: “Let’s be entirely clear here: These are grown men who get paid money to stand in front of an audience and say, quite literally, whatever they want, as long as they think it’s funny.” Yes, that’s what comedians do.
You say, “…And yet when women talk back, especially if it’s not flattering, we’re “idiots.” “ Sady, this is not a gender issue….Men who talk back during a performance are idiots too. Stand-up comedy is a performance, not a discourse. There are bouncers there whose sole purpose is to make sure our performance goes uninterrupted. Comedy is an art form. We get paid to say whatever we want, and I’ve earned that right to do so on good stages by putting in work year after year, and proving I can do it well. You have the right not to listen.
I got a Tweet from one of your readers 2 days ago saying, “someday I hope a man forcefully penetrates your asshole with their veiny cock. Rape jokes won’t be quite as funny after that.” Also, “or maybe your mother gets raped, or little sister. I don’t think you understand the culture you’re adding too.” Should I take that threat seriously? Do you condone this? Is that the kind of behavior you’re trying to motivate?
You quoted a Tweet of mine about the Boston Marathon saying, “This kind of violence in infuriating.” Yeah, it is. I think rape is awful too. Comics go to dark places to find jokes sometimes. That’s what we do. Woody Allen says, “Comedy is tragedy plus time.” I was horrified by the Boston Marathon and I still am, but I have jokes commenting on the subject now because I’m a comic and that’s my job. I say, “This Boston Marathon has made me very sad…It made me realize that my brother and I don’t do anything together anymore.” Do you think making a joke about this event means I approve of terrorism? (By the way, a couple of Boston comics have told me it’s a very good joke.)
You may hate my jokes. Well, then don’t listen to them. You have a right to your opinion. The bottom line is: I know more about comedy than you. I know more about funny than you do, and nothing was ever made funnier by political correctness.
I know a ton of funny people and I’ve never heard: “you know who we need to punch up this material? A blogger who doesn’t get irony.” We don’t disagree about rape. We don’t disagree about terrorism. We disagree about comedy. Thanks for your input.
It seems clear that Sam was willing to have a dialogue and answer any questions.
However, the email Sady sent to him was by no means reasonable. No journalist in search of a dialogue and answers would frame their questions in such a fashion. Her email contained almost no actual questions, and the extremely loaded ones she asked were sandwiched in between statistics of how many black women in America have been raped. How on earth was he supposed to have a serious discussion of the difference between art and crossing boundaries when the interviewer is phrasing in such a way that he can only do so by addressing a complex issue of race, violence, and sexism that he had nothing to do with?
Sam wanted to have the discussion the author pretended to want, but not the one she actually wanted – which was to hang him out to dry. She did not send a fair inquiry – the letter she sent was more akin to a childish angry screed.
Her editor really lets her conduct “journalism” in this fashion?
Sady, why don’t you pretend to walk into things with an open mind. You might be surprised by what you find out, and god forbid, you might actually graduate from a blogger to a journalist. My guess is that is a graduation she is not willing to make, as one sided name calling like this clearly draws more clicks.
And we are all dumber for it.
Some friends of mine know this comedian and posted his response. I have to say, the argument, “We disagree about comedy” (essentially his point) is true in my case as well, and I AM a comedian myself. Here’s the bottom line. “I raped a woman” as a punchline is, among other shitty things, HACK. That’s all I have to say. And well done.
Your comment “After you get raped by the two guys, I guess. It’s a remarkably rough night Cook and Tosh had planned for that woman” is a rape joke.
By the way, comedians don’t get paid to stand on stage and say whatever we think is funny. We get paid to stand on stage and say things that the audience thinks are funny.
What your story seemed to omit, completely, is the reaction Sam (whom I have never worked with) got from the audience. Excluding you, since we know how you felt, what did the rest of the crowd think? Laughter? Or stone cold silence?
One more thing- I presume you don’t believe that any of his rape/violence jokes were true, do you? I don’t.
He responded: https://www.facebook.com/sam.morril/posts/10100191249112069
Absolutely worth reading, it’s a really amazing response.
This entire article is asinine. You set up your argument as if it’s a critique of his comedy when, in reality, you have no idea how stand-up comedy works. In stand-up, any topic is useable because comedy generally derives from tragedy. Comedy, for the most part, provides a different vantage point to the ills of the world. If you can’t laugh at the tragic stuff, what point would comedy serve, on a pragmatic level? In judging the strength of a person’s joke, you can’t focus on the topics explored. Yes, some shit is sensitive but it doesn’t mean it’s off the table. Instead, you focus on its structure. To examine the structure of a comic’s joke, you have to focus on things like timing, logic between the premise/punchline and overall delivery. A good joke can involve offensive material. On the flip-side, a bad joke might use innocuous material. If you can’t separate the source material from the structure of the joke, then you probably shouldn’t go to comedy shows. You’ll be offended often.
In an effort to further the feminist cause, you simply came off as a whiny person who’s easily offended. Grow-up.
Sam responded to article in his Facebook feed. Guess what? Sady left out many of the punchlines of the jokes she was discussing and also lied to Sam and pretended she was a fan (conveniently leaving that part out of her article).
The smug, self-indulgent satisfaction that author took in writing this meaningless garbage actually made me physically ill. Either that or it was the non-fat french vanilla yogurt I had earlier. But no joke, this must be the best job in the world – she gets to write book-length complaints about absolutely nothing. God bless this country.
It sucks when people make “feminists” and “comedians” two separate categories. Stop doing it. If you “allow” more comedians to be both, that might help.
“Feminists say rape jokes are offensive, comics say they have the right to offend people, and we just keep repeating the same lines from that point forward.”
I don’t think you should be speaking for all feminists. I consider myself a feminist and have heard Sam Morril tell some of these specific jokes and was not offended. In fact, I laughed. The whole crowd was laughing. Sam’s material felt genuine, nonthreatening, therapeutic, and smart.
Speak for yourself, not for feminists, not for women.
You lost me at “Feminist”
Sam responded on his Facebook. not sure if it was sent to you also, but this was his reply:
My response to Sady Doyle’s article about me:
First, let me say that I do not condone rape, and it is never my intention to write a joke that upsets people. I never write a joke thinking, “this’ll show ‘em.” I’m a comedian.
Making jokes about terrible things is part of what comics do and when you paraphrase jokes on very delicate topics, you’re stripping them of their meaning and irony, the things that makes them funny. In my N word joke you referred to, you decided to leave out the punchline, which is pretty important when you’re quoting a joke, especially about such a sensitive topic. The punchline is that the crowd thinks: “We thought he was going to say the N word, then thank God…It’s just a rape joke.” It’s a moment of relief, but really it’s much worse. It’s a commentary on political correctness, not an approval of rape. Your reaction compounds the irony. My joke on political correctness brings out the political correctness police. You know who finds that joke funny? My female manager, my ex-girlfriend (we’re still friends), and my mom, all feminists.
You mention the “reasonable” and “intelligent” Louis CK. Well, Louis has plenty of jokes about rape. Ever heard the one? “You should never rape a woman…Unless you want to have sex with her and she wont let you…Then what other choice do you have?”
Many female comics joke about rape as well. Sarah Silverman has one: “I was raped by a doctor, which is so bittersweet for a Jewish girl.” Do you understand that neither Louis nor Sarah approves of rape? Do find it necessary to send them the pages of rape statistics that you sent me?
Rape, fart, dick, murder, genocide, etc. jokes have been a part of comedy going back to 400 BC Greece. I’m jealous that Aristophanes got to live blogger-free, without people text messaging through his plays. You conveniently left out the sentences in your initial first email where you wrote, “you really stood out from the other comics.” You wanted to engage with me so you pretended to be a fan by complimenting me. Very tricky!
You completely misquoted a story I told to portray me as a misogynist or worse. There are lots of bad people out there who do evil things. I think your time would be better spent attacking them. Most of them have no sense of irony either. You clearly were not interested in having a conversation. For some reason, you chose me to ambush, and spun this article in a manipulative way.
Here’s a quote from your article: “Let’s be entirely clear here: These are grown men who get paid money to stand in front of an audience and say, quite literally, whatever they want, as long as they think it’s funny.” Yes, that’s what comedians do.
You say, “…And yet when women talk back, especially if it’s not flattering, we’re “idiots.” “ Sady, this is not a gender issue….Men who talk back during a performance are idiots too. Stand-up comedy is a performance, not a discourse. There are bouncers there whose sole purpose is to make sure our performance goes uninterrupted. Comedy is an art form. We get paid to say whatever we want, and I’ve earned that right to do so on good stages by putting in work year after year, and proving I can do it well. You have the right not to listen.
I got a Tweet from one of your readers 2 days ago saying, “someday I hope a man forcefully penetrates your asshole with their veiny cock. Rape jokes won’t be quite as funny after that.” Also, “or maybe your mother gets raped, or little sister. I don’t think you understand the culture you’re adding too.” Should I take that threat seriously? Do you condone this? Is that the kind of behavior you’re trying to motivate?
You quoted a Tweet of mine about the Boston Marathon saying, “This kind of violence in infuriating.” Yeah, it is. I think rape is awful too. Comics go to dark places to find jokes sometimes. That’s what we do. Woody Allen says, “Comedy is tragedy plus time.” I was horrified by the Boston Marathon and I still am, but I have jokes commenting on the subject now because I’m a comic and that’s my job. I say, “This Boston Marathon has made me very sad…It made me realize that my brother and I don’t do anything together anymore.” Do you think making a joke about this event means I approve of terrorism? (By the way, a couple of Boston comics have told me it’s a very good joke.)
You may hate my jokes. Well, then don’t listen to them. You have a right to your opinion. The bottom line is: I know more about comedy than you. I know more about funny than you do, and nothing was ever made funnier by political correctness.
I know a ton of funny people and I’ve never heard: “you know who we need to punch up this material? A blogger who doesn’t get irony.” We don’t disagree about rape. We don’t disagree about terrorism. We disagree about comedy. Thanks for your input.
As a female comedian, I have to deal with listening to and the defending of rape jokes daily. It’s very frustrating and saddening and most importantly, really lazy writing. Don’t these comics know that people have been making rape jokes for centuries? If you want to be edgy or shock the audience, maybe switch it up and not do them. The comedian in question posted a response on his Facebook page, possibly to avoid a backlash on this blog. In it he mentions these jokes are making fun of “political correctness.” That is the most tired argument regarding rape jokes. This “PC-Mad” world we live in causes people to feel uncomfortable making fun of rape. I’m not sure how that is a bad thing.
If he were telling racist or anti-Semitic jokes a lot more people would be up in arms about his “comedy”. I don’t respect a guy that tells those kind of jokes, and as a writer and a comic, I find them hacky, easy, and ignorant. It’s just hitting a trend where comics get in trouble for saying “faggot” onstage because gay rights are a huge deal, so I don’t see how it’s ok for a comic to tell a hacky, re-hashed copycat joke about raping a chick just to get cheap laughs and make people in the audience pissed. Sam Morril owes you the explanation of, “I’m not a creative thinker and I don’t spend enough time writing better jokes as I should. I can only think of the cheap one-liners that open micers and drunk men think are funny”. Most of my friends are writers, actors, comics, and he’s a hack that found his niche by copycatting guys like Stanhope and Tosh but he’s not as good of a writer as either of them are. And I know because Stanhope is a close family friend, and a very brilliant thinker no matter how offensive HE is.
I was hoping this was going to lead to you and Sam singing “The Accidental Rapist”
I hope he responds.
You can see his response on his Facebook page.
Sometimes it’s nice to ask people why they tell the jokes they do, especially when they can be seen as inflamatory. Isn’t this what comedy is about to a certain extent? To see things from someone else’s perspective? To start conversations?
As a stand-up comedian myself, I just don’t see the funny in victim-blaming and perpetuating disturbing stereotypes, like that hitting women is funny. However, if I talk about something on stage, I fully feel like people have the right to ask me about it later.
He didn’t have to answer this, but I thought posing the questions was good enough.
So many people don’t seem to understand the first amendment on this thread. Yes, sure, he has the right to make these jokes. But it doesn’t end there. She has the right to react any way she wants with her speech. She’s allowed to criticize, analyze, and condemn him anyway she pleases. She’s allowed to email him and demand an answer (and he’s allowed to ignore her). So please, shut the hell up about “just ignore it otherwise you hate the constitution”. No. This dialogue is what the first amendment is about.
‘To date, we have received no response from Sam Morril.’
That’s surprising, since I just read his entire response, which was well, thought, calm, to the point, and can be found on his Facebook page. Perhaps he sent it to, perhaps not; if not, perhaps it was because he did not want to you edit out and misrepresent him the way you did in your piece. For anyone who thinks Sam is ‘chickenshit’, Here is a link to his Facebook page. Read his response. It’s worth the 3 minutes.
https://www.facebook.com/sam.morril?group_id=0
Hmmm, so of all the things in the world that you could write about to make a difference- you chose a stand up comedian? That’s tragic, and even more tragic that you don’t fully understand that comic world. If this was 40 years ago, we would be reading about Lenny Bruce right now.
I’m not sure you understand how these jokes work.
You can write a joke about anything. There is no requirement to go to a hateful or horrifying place in order to be considered bold or get attention as a comic. How risky is a joke when the offended parties are a group the comedian is going to brush aside as politically correct and full of nonsense anyway? You haven’t accomplished that much then. Good for this author calling this out. It does suck to be in a comedy club, hear a joke that goes to core of how frightening it is to be prey and listen as everyone laughs. Sadly, focusing on this one comic is a bit of a waste of time since he’s not the only one doing it (again, how original is this bold tactic?).
The show was called CRINGE Humor. Success no? I don’t see the problem.
It seems like your question you want answered is, “is it a good idea to insult 20-30% of the audience?” A question you are totally free to ask. HOWEVER, if your question is coming from an “Everyone is Equal,” place, I hope you are emailing the female comics whose schtick is basically “men are pigs,” and asking them what the payoff is in insulting 70-80% of the audience.
I have never seen his comedy. I have no idea if anything he has is funny. I know the only way to make someone stop talking about things is to not be interested. Comedians will not tell jokes to the air. If people laugh all bets are off. I would suggest not writing a blog even though you come off as level headed and reasonable. It ultimately will me miss interpreted. Tosh is stronger than ever as a result.
I’d never have been able to be that restrained and courteous in the face of that kind of idiocy and blind privilege. Sady “lashed out”? Don’t make me laugh, clueless commenters.
@Dave
“Kevin…you posted a complaint about how people shouldn’t complain about what others say/write because they have the option to ignore it.”
No, Kevin didn’t say that they had the option to “ignore” it…he said that they basically have the option to not go out of their way to go and see it in the first place.
“Did someone force you to read this blog at gunpoint?”
Probably not. And nobody fforced this woman to go see Sam Morrils at gunpoint either. You just destroyed your own argument in one paragraph.
I can’t step into this guy’s life and tell you why he’d make rape jokes, but I do understand a bit of why they’re made. In Daniel Tosh’s case, he’s known to be abusive towards the audience in a dismissive sort of way, and so he just blurted out some ridiculous rape quip that, I feel, wasn’t funny at all. Not offensive, because he’s just a comedian, but not funny. In Morril’s case…maybe he’s insecure about his craft? The jokes were actually well-written, but a lot of young comedians go for the jugular when it’s not necessary. And then, the idea of the rape joke as a sub-genre itself: it’s the most horrible thing. Ask a guy what he’s most afraid of if he ever went to jail, and I bet you get a 9/10 answer of “I don’t want to get raped.”
Comedians have always made fun of the things they fear, and lots of male comedians have a very male fear of rape. The fact that this doesn’t translate better, perhaps because rape is a whole body-fear for women and mostly only a mind-fear for guys, is unfortunate, but this guy’s not trying to perpetuate a rape culture. He’s just trying to combine a punchline with the worst thing he can imagine.
Just as Macbeth does not condone or promote the use of poisons, and The 3 Stooges does not promote violence against others with wrenches, a rape joke is just that. a joke. it ndoes not “promote” it, and firing off a bunch of statistics does NOTHING.
Simply put, the author of this “article” could have left the comedy club.
But no, she saw an opportunity to jump on the post-Tosh rape joke bandwagon, and took it.
Congratulations. I’m sure that the rape victims world wide will thank you. That is , the ones who don’t enjoy the odd rape joke…and YES, they do exist by the way. There are plenty of comedians who have been raped too, and also make rape jokes. You have the right to voice your disagreement, but they have the right to make jokes.
YOU do not have the right to make them silent. Morrils is crap btw.
And by the way, Tosh didn’t “wish” that she got raped, please check your facts: your journalistic integrity is on the line.
“Wouldn’t it be funny if that girl got raped by, like, five guys right now? Like right now?”: Daniel Tosh.
Please check facts first. It looks like you are raging without any clue as to what exactly you are raging against.
I am a stand up comedian. I have a couple of rape jokes. A few domestic abuse jokes. Child abuse jokes. Etc etc. In fact, pretty much all my jokes are about horrible things. Things that -I- think are horrible. It’s satire. In the same sense as “A Modest Proposal” by Jonathan Swift. That’s why people laugh. We recognize the incongruity. If you’ve been raped, I can see why you wouldn’t laugh. However, I don’t see what’s funny about airline food. That doesn’t make me laugh. There are a lot of different kinds of humor out there. And if I laugh at a rape joke, it’s not because I’m a rapist or support rape. I don’t think RAPE is funny at all. Or any other kind of violence. However, the way I deal with things that make me uncomfortable is I find a way to laugh at it. I am HORRIFIED by anything that glorifies violence. There’s a lot of horrible stuff going on all across the world, every second of the day. How does one maintain their sanity in a world like that? Find a way to laugh at it. Take some of the power it has over us away from it. Now, when I tell these jokes, I know some of the audience is laughing for the -wrong- reason. I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to change their mind– but maybe they will think about why they’re laughing at it. Maybe it will provoke some kind of thought in them. I don’t know. I know why I’m making the jokes, and people who -really- get my jokes understand it’s satire. For example, if I say “There’s one topic I won’t joke about, and that’s date rape. There’s nothing funny about date rape. I mean, why should I pay for dinner?” What I am really saying is “Why are we classifying date rape as some other kind of lesser form of rape…because the guy bought them dinner first?” Look up the word “satire” in the dictionary. Research the thousands of examples of satire throughout history and maybe you will have a better understanding. Then try having an actual dialogue with this guy instead of being a confrontational tool about it.
This bothers me greatly for a number of reasons.
First, you are giving a ton of press to a no-name comedian who uses a very out-dated misogyny as his gimmick. If you wanted to rob him of his power and speed along his journey to complete obscurity, you would be far better advised to never mention him in public….politely and privately advise your friends to avoid him and focus on comics who you know and respect.
Regardless of your perception of it, the trend in comedy is away from that sort of cheesy, cartoonish Dean Martin style chauvinism. If this is all this particular comic has to offer, then he will learn, the hard way, that he has to broaden his appeal and write smarter jokes to get ahead.
Second, please learn that just because someone stands on the right side of an issue, that does not excuse the means they employ to address that issue in public. If you are in a comedy club, are offended by a bit and choose to interrupt the show to voice your opinion, you are going to draw the attention of that performer and they have the mic.
Whether you are a loud, obnoxious drunk or an educated, passionate objector, the performer will use your sensitivity to shut you up. Its their right to do so. You are disrupting a performance that people paid to see. In that moment, you are making it all about you and your needs and stealing focus from the stage. If you indicate that you won’t accept jokes about rape, prepare for nothing but rape jokes as they try to shut you down.
Daniel Tosh (and I’m not defending his actions here) was not threatening the audience member with rape. When she interrupted the performance just as Tosh was leading into a bit with a statement about how rape is funny, she let it be known that this was her hot button issue. Daniel then turned on her to shut her down by speculating that it would be ironic if 5 guys near her table raped her at that moment. It was a classless, artless response to a heckler but it wasn’t a threat of actual sexual violence.
Next, please understand the vast overwhelming majority of comics who have jokes about rape in their act would never and have never committed and act of sexual assault. Nor would they wish it upon anyone in the world. The same can be said of the vast overwhelming majority of audience members who laugh at jokes about rape. A lot of people are in the blessed position of never having been touched by sexual violence….or at least not that they are aware….and that distance allows them, when presented with an appropriately absurd and clever joke, laugh at the concept, knowing that they can walk away from it without approving or apologizing or promoting rape.
A joke that mentions or suggests rape does not indicate the actual intent and character of the person telling the joke any more than a death metal band’s songs about serial killers would suggest an affinity for actually killing people or a film about a haunted house would suggest that the filmmakers carry a strong belief in the paranormal.
Humanity is drawn to explore dark subject matter in the safest ways possible…through art, fiction, film, comedy….its all a lie, ultimately, but it allows society to explore the roles of victim and predator without actually committing the deeds.
Anyone who comes out of a comedy club after hearing a few terrible rape jokes feeling that he has license to commit sexual assault, I guarantee this, already had the intention to do so and was simply looking for something to justify it….and he would have found it somewhere else….in song lyrics, in tv shows, in religion, in greeting cards. Comedy does not have the power to create rapists where none existed before.
And finally, also understand that horrible things happen to people all over the world. Rape is a shade in a spectrum of atrocities that we commit against ourselves constantly. Men are raped as a traditional method of combat in the Middle East. Children are raped everywhere. People are murdered in the most heinous and brutal ways imaginable. Entire nations, races and cultures are held down and robbed of their dignity and power. It would drive most people to complete loss of faith or will to live if it weren’t for the ability to laugh at some tough, awful things.
I’m a gay man and I’ve seen some shockingly blatant homophobia in comedy. I have seen people make jokes about AIDS and bashing gay men and women. You only have to go back to the 1990’s to see the time that it was the norm, more than the exception.
But my point is that the homophobia I have seen has made way for so many enlightened, truly smart comics who believe strongly in equality…to the point where they greatly outnumber the assholes now.
The same will be true of misogyny….but that day will not arrive by way of blistering, scathing blog posts which mistakenly label true allies such as Patton Oswalt as pro-rape because he took issue with the Daniel Tosh audience member’s actions. It will arrive when everyone refuses to back away from laughter and focusses their attention on the ones who do it right.
Standup comedy should be art and the artist should be thinking about the point he/she wants to make with his/her art. Rape jokes that glorify rape, belittle victims or otherwise give a pass to rape culture are lazy art.
https://www.facebook.com/sam.morril/posts/10100191249112069?notif_t=like
your response^
Rape jokes can be funny: but most of the time they are tasteless lazy attempts at capitalizing on the uncomfortability of the subject. Louis C.K. has an hilarious rape joke about him being repeatedly rebuffed by a willing woman and later she was bewildered by his lack of “trying”. Great joke; great comic. Your average open mic rape joke is poorly contrived and uncomfortable, but not in the way they intended. The beauty of an open mic is that any idiot can say anything for 5 minutes. The downside is same. The difference between an open mic’er and a seasoned veteran is the amount of failure they’ve had. And, when they are rewarded for their success, they feel as if they’ve done something right. Male/female relations are generally a topic of great discussion, and most especially, relationships between the two. Tosh was greatly defended because he was heckled and the power-relationship between a comic and an audience is one that is called into question. If you don’t like a joke, don’t laugh. Not all of them are great. Feedback is an invaluable commodity for a comedian. A lot of men are sexually frustrated. This is funny to both sexes. If you’ve ever been “cock-blocked” by a friend, you know the frustration. Women and men have different struggles in the dating world and both are equally hilarious. The problem is, drawing a line between frustration and hostility (for some comics). Rape jokes *can* be funny….but not funny because rape is funny, but because of a poignant statement about the subject. Social commentary. /end rant
As an aspiring stand up comedian, I feel like I should chime in here. Sady, you seem very intelligent, and I understand why you are upset, but honestly…. comedy is a different beast than anywhere else. The basic thing is, on stage, either NOTHING is sacred, or EVERYTHING is. Am I defending this specific guy? No, not really…. his biggest crime is just being unfunny. Judging from the content of his set, he’s a run of the mill “edgy” comic, who substitutes actual wit with bludgeoning people with shock stuff. Rape is terrible. So are a LOT of things comics attempt to joke about, here, I’ll volunteer something from my material “I’m realizing now that comedy is a dark road for me to take, my best case scenario is I get a little fame, a little money, and then die of an overdose before everyone is sick of me” People laugh. Now what if one person knows someone who died of a drug overdose… should I stop telling it because I may offend them? When comics rally together…. it is rarely in defense of the JOKE, they are defending the ATTEMPT. I’m just saying, if people make other jokes that can be called offensive by some group…. what are we supposed to do, analyze it until we can’t say anything that may offend anyone?
Actually Sam did post a response which you can find here:http://thecomicscomic.com/2013/05/06/global-comment-on-one-comedians-rape-jokes-and-that-comedians-response/
People, these are words, they don’t hurt anyone. No one has every left a comedy club thinking it was okay to rape. Never, not once. Sady, welcome to Planet Earth, where you are going to hear and see things you don’t like. Grow up and get over it.
What’s the point of this article?
To ruin someone’s career because you didn’t like a joke (could have made your point without putting his name in)?
To let everyone know where you personally draw the line of what’s appropriate to say on stage (I’m sure some of his other jokes were offensive)?
To warn future comedians that not everyone will like they jokes (surprise!)?
Yes, Sady, you have the freedom to write about whatever you’d like, I just don’t see what you’re trying to accomplish.
Apparently Sam Moril replied on his Facebook to this and not directly to her.
Thus, making him even more of a punk in real life than his actual stand-up onstage.
Sady I am confused. Are you implying that no comic, regardless of context, should ever make a joke about rape?
Awesome letter.
I feel the need to minorly defend Louis CK, who had missed the whole Tosh fiasco because he was on vacation, and as a result read up on some feminist lit and rape stats and seems to be making his way, at least better than a lot of other male comediance, which of course only goes so far.
To those in the comments making arguments about free speech and what people have a right to say – you should probably do some research on sexual harrassment. Also, if you are a decent human being, then perhaps you should put more effort into changing the extreme level of violence women experience worldwide, and decrease the number of women who are offended, re-traumatized, etc, by rape jokes.
Jokes are intended to be ironic. Sam is a comic not a pundit therefore one with a sense of humor must assume that he does not literally mean what he says rather it is part of a reveal punchline joke formula. If I say in a comedy club during a comedy set that I am so unbearable to look at that I want to kill myself only those without a sense of humor would assume I really intend to kill myself. I think this blog would be worth something if it covered
Violence towards women in porn or actual rapists not a comedian making jokes about a horrible reality. Jokes can be funny or not funny and like the taste of food it is often subjective. Pretending rape doesn’t exist by not being able to joke about it at all or mention it won’t raise awareness of it and actually endows it with more power. The way good people conquer evil intentions is by being able to joke about it this rendering its fear over us powerless.
Those who miss irony tend to be heartless, insensitive, sociopathic opportunists usually interested in self-aggrandizement but they mask it as concern for others and moral outrage. I’m sure the author of this is really interested in how dangerous and not funny Sam is and not in making a name for herself by writing this.
Hi. I just want to say that I am a woman, a feminist, and a stand-up comic. I am constantly surrounded by male comics and their jokes about women. Some are respectful; some are not. But speaking as a comic, I can deal with misogynist humor 1000 times more than I can put up with a heckler. I am so tired of hearing about the Daniel Tosh fiasco because, while he clearly doesn’t know how to properly shut down a heckler without looking like a jerk, a heckler gets what’s coming to her. I actually opened for Sam Morril once and he was a very polite and respectful man. In fact, we were both heckled that evening and he shut the guy down and reassured me that I didn’t deserve that kind of treatment as a comic. I also listened to his set, and I was not offended. The joke about paying someone to punch another woman at the bar has been greatly simplified by your article and you are not allowing the reader a clear picture of the joke. People who are not comics or who are extra-sensitive to politically charged issues and sometimes miss the humor or deconstruction of touchy subjects. That’s what comedy is supposed to do.
But this is obviously not the point. The point is that if you are so fired up about something a comedian says on stage into a microphone, then you better write your own jokes and get your own stage time. Because telling jokes is our job, an when you heckle, you come into our office and tell us we’re shit.
Btw Sam did respond and he did so very articulately. I wonder if it will be posted here for all to see.
I’d like to thank you for writing this.
I’m a female stand-up comic. Well, I was. I recently stopped because I couldn’t bear constant negativity and petty double standards. I’m not an egotistical person but I can admit when I do well. And I did pretty well. Women always loved my sets, and a lot of men too. I usually talked about sex, because, quite simply, it’s really the one thing besides disgusting bodily functions (I’ll leave that the high-brow male comics) that everyone has in common. And we’ve all experienced embarrassment, self-consciousness, and doubt in that department, and I liked being the one to make people feel a little more at ease about it.
Apparently talking about sex makes me a slut. Admittedly, I did say I was at various points in my set but other stand-up comics should understand that its part of the act. I mean just because they say they’re funny, doesn’t mean they are, right?
I wish being called a slut was the worst of it. One of the worst experiences I had, was at a show I did around here. The host was someone I didn’t get along with, but that’s a story for another day. It was one of those crowds that you get every once in awhile that just don’t get you. It was a bad night for me. I did a good set, but they were just not picking up what I was throwing down. So I did what I had to do and got off stage.
The host of the show came up after my set and said something along the lines of “That’s comedy? Sounds more like a Craigslist ad. You can rape her in the parking lot after the show.” I was so shocked I didn’t know what to do. So I did what anyone would do in that situation. I went to the bathroom and cried.
One way I wasn’t being crazy, was that other comics left the show and came to make sure I was ok. Comics are usually a pretty insensitive bunch so that meant a lot. So I sucked it up, did a shot (or 3) and went back in. I spent the rest of the night so angry I was shaking. I am not an insult comic, so I couldn’t get vindication that way, but I wanted something.
After my set, two other comics went up and referenced my set, saying things like “I don’t know what disease I might get from this mic”. I’m sure your picturing me doing an incredibly dirty, nasty set but I promise, it’s not all that bad.
One thing I wanted was an apology from the booker and from the guy who recommended me for the show. What did I get instead? I got pulled aside and told that I would no longer be asked back to the venue because I was too dirty.
Me talking about my boyfriend waking me up with morning wood is too dirty for your establishment, but telling the audience they can feel free to rape me at said establishment is totally ok? I wanted to say these things but I just couldn’t because I knew I would cry.
This guy has continued to grace that stage, by the way. Many times.
These comics talk about abortion, rape, domestic violence, shitting, masturbating, race, homosexuality, and bestiality like its no big deal. Why is it not ok for me to talk about consensual sex in an funny, adult manner?
So, thank you for writing this. I am all about freedom of speech, but I also believe in a person’s right to feel safe and protected and happy. I did comedy because I wanted to make people smile and laugh and forget their lives for awhile. I just wish it was less damaging for me to do so.
Next, you should berate Bryan Cranston for making meth! Shove some statistics in his face about how much meth kills! Keep up the good fight!
“People keep having the same fight” specifically because one side is relentless and too hard-headed in their own agenda to acknowledge reality. This man is a performer on a stage. He is playing an exaggerated characterture of himself and people he has encountered. That is what comics do. Of course, they want to create a discussion about the topics they bring up, but attacking that person directly is wrong. He is not a politician. He is not a person telling these jokes at a party. While the topics themselves are fair game, the comic him/herself should be off-limits.
You remind me of one of those people on Facebook who repost a meme that gets your passions up and then when someone posts a link to snopes proving it untrue, you respond, “You’re missing the point. It doesn’t matter that it’s untrue. This is how I FEEL.”
Attacking a comic is as ludicrous as attacking an actor for playing a certain role or a novelist for writing about content that you don’t agree with. I saw a rant recently that a women’s group had posted an illustrated vagina diagram that got flagged as offensive and the user was banned from Facebook. That’s who you remind me of. (And I’m not talking about the women’s group!)
No one is faulting you passion about a serious topic. That is honorable and a worthwhile fight. But, in your zeal, you make more of a ridiculous joke about the subject than the comedian ever could by being so ignorant about something as simple as context.
I always wonder what these types of men’s mothers think of them.
Some comedians do what they do in order to expose the dark truths of society. In this case – the dark truth is that many people consider rape to be a topic of humor, rather than one of concerned discussion. Watch who laughs – who defends – and avoid them. Here, at least, some truth can be found.
God it was disappointing to get to the end of that and see that he didn’t respond.
It seems Mr. Morril did respond to your article http://thecomicscomic.com/2013/05/06/global-comment-on-one-comedians-rape-jokes-and-that-comedians-response/
I’m not getting the “rape culture” aspect. Do you think that the people who make these jokes and the people who laugh at them actually think rape is ok? Do you think someone who previously thought rape was a terrible thing hears these jokes, and people laughing at them, and thinks, “maybe rape isn’t such a bad thing after all, hey I think I might go out and rape somebody.”
I get that you don’t like these jokes, and you think people shouldn’t hire the guy that makes them. That’s fine. Writing to the guy, writing to club owners, heck organizing a boycott of anyone who hires him, I have no problem with any of that.
I just don’t get where there’s this idea that making jokes about something horrible somehow means people don’t think it’s horrible. The fact that it is horrible is why it gets laughs.
Yes, free speech is free speech; but people could turn their backs on Sam Morrill whenever he opens his mouth. One day he may have nobody to talk to.
This whole thing was a waste of time for the “author.” Sorry it just is. Comedians aren’t raping anyone and rapists aren’t taking cues from comedians.
Find a better way to spend your time would be my advice to the writer of this opinion piece.
Rick, I hope I’m misreading your comment and that you don’t think that rapes don’t actually happen. Her argument is that rape, like the Boston Bombing, is an act of violence, and one that should be condemned, not glorified. Rapes do happen, and unfortunately the statistics are probably wrong…the rate is probably much higher. Callously telling rape jokes the way some comics like this one do only furthers the kind of rape culture that blames victims and feels sorry for the rapists (Stubenville). And guess what; women who wear conservative clothes and don’t try to get attention or drink or go to parties still get raped. Men get raped. Rape is violence. Bombing is violence. Stabbing is violence. Shooting is violence. Punching is violence. None of these things are OK. Does he have every right to tell whatever “jokes” he wants? SURE! Do Sady and I have every right to find those jokes un-funny and offensive? YES. No one is trying to lock this guy up for what he says. Instead, I think Sady wrote a really intelligent and respectful letter explaining why some people have a problem with what he says, and maybe he will think long and hard about the impact of his words. Maybe he doesn’t care. But it’s just as wrong to go around vilifying comics for being offensive as it is for comics to threaten the people who find it offensive. Neither approach is productive, and I applaud this author for her attempt to break the cycle.
Just curious about something…
You wrote: “On April 15, I went to a comedy show. The opener was one Sam Morril. And his opener, as per my notes, went as follows: “My ex-girlfriend never made me wear a condom. That’s huge. She was on the pill.” Pause. “Ambien.””
Since you quoted the joke verbatim from your notes, and it was his opening joke, and he was the opener, I’m assuming you were taking notes from the second the show started: is this something female comedy fans, such as yourself, do? I assume it helps you remember all the things that offended you afterwards, however, it seems like you went to this show with the intention of being offended and writing about it afterward.
Sam Morril posted a response to this article on his facebook page here: https://www.facebook.com/sam.morril/posts/10100191249112069?notif_t=like
First, where is the irony in rape? Second, why do men, who are statistically more unlikely to be raped than women, think they have the right to make jokes about a horrific act that will probably never happen to them? Rape is not funny. Ever. Third, I think the times are changing, and male comedians are going to have to accept that women, who make up half the planet, are beginning to boycott sets that portray violence against them as ‘funny’. Because it is not. So, carry on boys. Soon you will have no one to perform in front of.
There was only one comedian who actually raped Vince Champ and his respectfully clean set would have been indoubtedly praised by you.
“To date, we have received no response for Sam Morril” >> Opinion manipulation, done clumsily “oh wow, he’s avoiding the questions”.
Also, I do not know Sam Morril, neither personally nor as his fan/public, however, i am pretty confident in saying that he does NOT condone rape. It’s called humour. It’s called black humour, or blue comedy. It’s a genre. It’s nothing new, people have been doing this for years – shock humour, projecting a “what an asshole I am” vibe to the public, guilty pleasure laughs… It’s a niche, if you may.
Now, your demand is – correct me if i’m wrong – that comedians take into consideration every audience member and their personal history, before writing their jokes. Or maybe, simply that one topic that bothers you – violence done to women (a terrible thing indeed, do not get me wrong)?
To make things simpler:
could you provide the world with an (exhaustive) list of topics that you believe should not be joked about by a comedian, in a private venue, in front of a paying & willing audience? And don’t say “anything but rape”, because i could come back with at least 50+ topics for you – racial, religious, you name it!
Also, you work against your point. Let me explain. These topics discussed in comedy clubs, 90% of the time will actually shed light on the absurdity and disgustingness of the perpetrators – in this case, rapists.
I highly doubt people come out of a comedy club pumped up “YEAH MAN, THOSE RAPE JOKES GOT ME FEELING LIKE I COULD BEAT A BITCH TONIGHT”. If you believe that’s the case, then i suggest you widen your social circle.
However, here’s the thing: if anyone listens to this dude, goes to his show, it’s that he’s probably good, at least to some extent. And a good comedian will make you think, and will raise issues through laughter. 2nd degree humor, you know.
Now if you don’t get this, that’s OK – just don’t go to comedy clubs, they’re not for you, you don’t get it. But don’t write about something you don’t understand either.
hey Ms. Sady, I appreciate your passion for what you believe in but you’re really reaching on this one. He’s a comedian. A comedian. I’ve seen Sam Morills act and to me he’s hilarious. His jokes are smart and well written and people laugh which means he’s doing his job. If he were the president or a school counselor essentially making fun of a touchy subject than you’d be correct but he’s a comedian and you have the freedom to say I didn’t like that, I wont watch him again. Unfortunately many people will listen to his rape jokes and laugh knowing that he’s a COMEDIAN and not act like he’s the pope, and go on about their day. I think you know that he doesn’t condone rape because he’s onstage on a comedy club and not in prison for raping someone.
I think what scares me most about this is the number of people and comments backing comedians like Sam and Tosh rather than standing behind someone who has the ability to say, “hey those jokes are messed up.” What is this saying about the majority of Americans (or should I say, the Rape Culture) we live in? Why are we defending the right to tell a rape joke? Why is this so important for us to tell a rape joke? When people argue about their right to tell rape jokes or argue about consent issues (she was drunk or dressed provocatively — so that means she was asking for it) it makes me wonder how many men and women are in fact, condoning rape.
Every joke you make (and yes, you think it’s only a joke) is adding to the rape culture that rape is okay, rape is expected, rape is normalized. As a man, I am sickened by this. As a man whose sister has been raped, I know better. But I also knew this before being personally touched by tragedy. I’m hoping the other men and women on this board “GET IT” that these jokes are not okay — and I hope they “get it” before rape becomes an all too familiar part of their real life. Because then all of a sudden, it’s not just a joke.
I think the bigger picture here is — when telling or laughing at a rape joke, or any joke that devalues women, what does that say about you? As a man or as a human being?
Sam’s response actually seemed quite hostile to me. Although it’s nice he responded. Instead of considering much of what you said, his responses were made up of what he “meant”. What we’re concerned with here is how “it comes off”. His condescending manner that he claims to know more about comedy than this blogger and therefore comedians who do NOT agree with the way he tells his rape jokes shows he has no intention of refining the communication of his jokes. Louis CK, when criticized, actually spent time researching responses. Sam clearly has not and like other stereotypical comics when faced with criticism, can’t take it.
There are feminist rape jokes. They make fun of the PERPETRATOR not the VICTIM. A simple google would demonstrate the difference between Louis CK’s rape jokes and this man’s rape jokes. All rape jokes are not created equal. Louis CK’s joke clearly pointed out that there is never a good reason to rape anyone. Making a “just a rape joke” to “supposedly” criticize political correctness really makes me question his priorities.
My friends are “feminists” is also not an appropriate defense. How in the world are we supposed to know that you are not hiding behind comedy in order to spread bigotry if your jokes are so crappy.
The winning quote on the board here is the one by “Violent femme”:
“Attacking a comic is as ludicrous as attacking an actor for playing a certain role or a novelist for writing about content that you don’t agree with.”
Right on. It’s comedy (and as another comment noted, if someone commits an act of violence after seeing the show, it was something they were inclined to do, and not likely spurred on by a joke).
That’s my four cents!
As a comedy booker for 30+ years, who’s worked with well over 1000 comics, I can say,
“Sam, I told you so…”
I met Sam Morril at the 2011 Laugh Your Asheville Off Comedy Festival, where I’d been invited by the organizers in hopes of providing work for the young comics being showcased.
When Sam & I spoke after his show, he got pretty upset with me & didn’t like my feedback.
I told him that although his opening bits had been very funny, he’d lost my interest after filling the balance of his set with gratuitous profanity, which may be shocking, but certainly wasn’t needed, and material that was all based on bodily functions. I told him that he’d frustrated me & that I wished he’d finished his set with more of the funny, clever material he’s opened with, especially in a short set in a 500 seat theater filled with folks who weren’t used to New York edge.
His negative attitude & unwillingness to accept critique clearly indicated he didn’t “get it”.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not bothered by the appropriate use of profanity. After all, Lewis Black swears like a sailor, but Lewis has something to say. Sam was just dirty, like a frat boy entertaining his brothers.
It’s too bad comedians no longer differentiate between entertainment and shock.
By definition, a comedian’s job is to make people LAUGH.
Hopefully, Sam will someday learn how to write FUNNY material.
On another note, someone in this stream mentioned a name I haven’t heard in a long time, Vince Champ.
Vince was once a very fine, well educated black comedian from Kansas City, very popular in the college market. Women were drawn to his good looks & confident delivery of smart, clean, clever jokes.
Like everyone else in the industry, I found it very hard to accept the fact that he’s a rapist, who preyed on women in many states who were students a colleges near where he was performing. Since I’d seen Vince in action & knew he had no problem picking women up, this just shows that rape is a crime of violence, not sex. He’s now been in prison for almost 20 years.
Here’s hoping Sam now decides to write “funny” & gets the chance to fulfill his potential.
BTW – The First Amendment is continually misunderstood.
It provides the PRESS with the protection to say things without fear of government reprisal.
It has nothing to do with personal statements.
There are precedents for these types of discussions, and no one explains it better than Carlin. Argument over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQA6UStpOyQ
Whenever this topic comes up, I’m inevitably embarrassed to be a man. Because, also inevitably, there’s always endless morons saying “it’s a joke!” or “it’s just comedy!” or “there’s other things to talk about!” thereby completely missing the point and being embarrassing fuckwads while they’re missing the point.
Whenever this topic comes up, I’m inevitably embarrassed to be a man. Because, also inevitably, there’s always endless morons saying “it’s a joke!” or “it’s just comedy!” or “there’s other things to talk about!” thereby completely missing the point and being embarrassing while they’re missing the point.
The best thing that’s starting to come out of bloggers writing about comedians that they’re offended by is that comedians like Sam Morril are starting to realize that there’s no need to apologize, because honestly, who cares if Sady or anyone else is offended? I know I don’t. Sady can be offended by whatever she chooses to be offended by (and make no mistake about it: if you’re offended by something, its because you’ve chosen to be offended by it.)
Even before the now infamous Michael Richards incident, comedians have allowed themselves to be held hostage by opinions printed on letterhead. Whether its an opinion published by GLAAD, the NAACP, or Sady Doyle’s blog, its just opinion. Nothing more. And the value of opinion is subjective. Some of you may hold Sady’s opinion in high regard. I, myself, do not. I laughed at every single joke Sady mentioned in this blog post. That’s because I’m a part of Sam’s target demo. Sady is not. Sady’s fans, most likely, are not. And because I am a part of the group of people Sam is most likely trying to appeal to, and Sady is not, my opinion on Sam’s material carries way more merit. And as far as I’m concerned, Sam is fucking hilarious and on point, not only with his material, but with his response to this blog post.
The internet has become a bastion of valueless opinion. Artists are being criticized by people that were not the intended audience for their material. And because, as humans, we are forever motivated to action by things that impact us negatively rather than positively, negative feedback is all we ever see. The time has come for people to start reacting with positive feedback to what we see, so allow me to start now. “My name is David Harris, and I love a good rape joke!”
Thank you, and God Bless America… and rape jokes.
What topics are okay to joke about? The ones that don’t have meaning to you in your life?
Everyone has a sensitive topic to them, but a comedian cannot cater to everyone’s needs, especially when they don’t know the audience’s history. There are so many horrible ways to die and things that happen to people every day. It’s a shame you were not raised to over time be able to laugh about tragedy.
Is there a difference between making a joke about The Holocaust and killing 6 million Jews? Yes, there is, just like how there’s a difference between making a joke about rape and actually doing it. One is a joke, a formulation of words attempted at creating humor. The other is an action meant to harm.
Your argument is nothing but statistics. You basically say that rape jokes are not allowed because it happens to a lot of women. What about 9/11 jokes? Far more women are raped than people who died in 9/11. So you approve of 9/11 jokes and not rape ones? Or maybe you don’t approve of 9/11 jokes. What about people who die of rare diseases? Say, a disease that kills 1 in every 50 million people. Is that okay to make jokes about because chances are no one affected by the disease will be in the audience? That’s a cowardly way to approach anything in life. A comedian can either recycle old jokes or try something new.
Stick to being a fan of Bill Cosby’s comedy. You know, the guy who never curses but has had numerous women accuse him of sexual assault.
Congratulations, you created new fans for Sam Morril.
“These are grown men who get paid money to stand in front of an audience and say, quite literally, whatever they want, as long as they think it’s funny.”
Here’s where I stopped ready. They don’t get paid to say anything because THEY think it’s funny. They get up there and say anything because PEOPLE think it’s funny. No one pays a comedian to make themselves laugh. They pay them to make other people laugh and have a good time.
What’s perhaps just as disappointing as Morril’s lack of humor are all the people here, some women or posing as such, who are quick to demean condemn the author’s thoughts, feelings and criticisms.
It’s been said many times before that the worst speech, or in this instance jokes, is the kind to be defended because it protects other, less inflammatory speech.
I’m sure that means a lot to those victimized by sexual assault or domestic violence. And it’s worth highlighting that most of the people involved in defending these rights are men.
People may say what they want, no matter how insulting, but it doesn’t make it right or that others have to like it and not express disapproval, which is all that Ms. Doyle seems to be doing.
So why are people more up in arms about her exercising freedom of speech and expression than they are with mediocre comics who resort to “humor” that diminishes women’s experiences?
I feel battered just reading some responses here and on Twitter and I didn’t even write the article. Surely there are more who feel the same but who are inhibited to say so with all the minimalizing here.
http://harryterjanian.blogspot.com/2013/05/in-defense-of-rape-loving-comedians.html
Hi Sady,
I’ve done stand-up before and have seen a few rape jokes in my time. I generally see it from a lot of new guys trying to cut their teeth, it seems to go along the same path of the shock jock. Any reaction will do. Personally I find it pretty hacky. Unfortunately Sam will not be the last guy to try something like that, but maybe it’s all he can think of. The jokes that you heard aren’t only offensive, they’re badly written. Take away the shock and it’s boring. At least there are also a lot of smart comics too.
All the best
Bridget
Sending an angry email isn’t confronting him.
And btw he did reply on facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/sam.morril/posts/10100191249112069?notif_t=like
I’m a female, I don’t particularly like rape jokes, but frankly, I think when people go to a comedy show, they have to be open to hearing things that MAY rub them the wrong way.
I have been to A LOT of shows and I personally HATE to see someone in the crowd yelling out “Hey I have cancer” or “I was raped”, or ” Hey, my son is handicapped.” and force the comedian to respond. I’ve seen it many times. Guess what…the show is not about YOU. The comedian doesn’t know YOU. He or she is not doing it to piss YOU off or hurt YOUR feelings.
If you are too raw to hear anything about a tragedy that has occurred to you or anyone you know, you probably shouldn’t go to a comedy show EVER.
If you don’t like a comedian’s set, you don’t like it. You have a right to your opinion. Enough people besides the comedian found the joke funny or he would have worked it out of his set.
Comedy is a craft, and each comedian is evolving with every show. Its a fine line between funny and distasteful. Sometimes they hit it and sometimes they don’t. The smarter ones know how to avoid the cheap laughs consistently. The rest learn as they go.
Anyway, most shows you see 3 or more comedians. So instead of obsessing over the one that had jokes you didn’t like, look forward to the next one make you laugh. And lighten UP!
Seems like maybe perhaps you have way too much time on your hands and no real stability at whatever current job you have. Here’s a hint; don’t go to comedy shows if you’re this uptight.
Love, Kursh
The problem with this debate is perfectly summed up in the headline. “Not so funny”. I think this is why feminists lose this argument with me every time I hear it. Once they start to argue that a joke that is offensive, awful, and garbage is not funny — well they immediately lose the argument with me if I thought it was, in fact, funny.
It is just the wrong tack. Something can be cruel and offensive and wrong AND be funny at the same time. When the funny fades, or the context changes, then the awful is all that is left and we see it for what it is. (Andrew Dice Clay’s 80’s act, for example).
This is how you win this debate with me. You point out that Eddie Murphy’s Delirious was hilarious in its day, and yet when it was repeated by schoolkids, those words and ideas proved incredibly hurtful to gay teens in the 80’s. I learned this when I once offended a good friend when I was doing Eddie Murphy.
It is the same with rape jokes…if they are funny, then they are funny. Don’t fight that battle. I think the battle to fight is: for a comedian, is funny really the only thing that matters? I think many would say it is, but I think at least that would be an argument worth having.
Who wants to respond to an email filled with rape statistics?! You’re not opening a dialogue, you’re bombarding someone with information, a lot of it, and expecting him to have as much invested in answering you as you do in needing the answers.
I am a woman. I like being a woman. I also like being a comic.
Rape jokes don’t bother me. Maybe I am better at separating someone’s actual opinion and thoughts from a punchline. Yes, bed rape jokes are made all the time. And yes, some audience members are more sensitive than others. I am not for rape jokes, or against them.
I think, as a very proud feminist, you seem to always be looking for a moment, a phrase, a word to set you off. I don’t know Sam well. I wasn’t there to hear the jokes or the execution, i can only go off of what you have written here.
You come across to me as someone with a point to prove all the time. Someone who would be awful to have at parties and if I mentioned I like potato chips, would give me the economic history of why potato chips are popular and responsible for single-handedly bringing down the American Farmer.
It was painful to read your voice, let alone probably hear it in person.
I think what a lot of people don’t get (and what Sam does not address) is that for many fans there is a difference in making fun of the rapist, or the person (in the joke) who is or was being raped. Making light of a terrible situation isn’t usually being done by laughing at a victim or oppressed in a situation. “Hahahaha, that girl got raped” is not funny. To me that’s as funny as “Let’s laugh at that person because he is fat, or handicapped or foreign”. The Boston joke IS making light of the situation, as it’s not laughing at the vicitms, for example (I can’t imagine people laughing at the idea of “haha, some people got killed”.
That’s why I find Tosh’ ‘that woman should get raped by some guys, wouldn’t that be funny’-remark not funny, but Sarah Silverman’s joke had me in stitches (also the one she told about rape jokes being easy, since rape victims are not the ones that usually speak up. That IS making light of the situation).
So yeah, I think that’s the crux when it comes to rape jokes (who are we laughing at in the joke) and I would have liked to read that nuance, but didn’t see it.
When people talk about “rape culture”, one of the things they’re referring to is the fact that assholes like Sam Morril and his fans think rape is funny. “See, I’m telling you about this sex I had that you assume was consensual, but then it turns out that it actually wasn’t! Ha-ha! Isn’t that so IRONIC?” Yup, real fucking high-brow. Sure sounds like someone who “think[s] rape is awful too.”
It’s nothing but cheap shock humor for the lowest common denominator with no social conscience. People like him just get into “comedy” because they want an excuse to be repugnant and callous and think it doesn’t make them as much of an asshole that way.
“First, let me say that I do not condone rape, and it is never my intention to write a joke that upsets people. I never write a joke thinking, “this’ll show ‘em.” I’m a comedian.
Making jokes about terrible things is part of what comics do and when you paraphrase jokes on very delicate topics, you’re stripping them of their meaning and irony, the things that makes them funny. In my N word joke you referred to, you decided to leave out the punchline, which is pretty important when you’re quoting a joke, especially about such a sensitive topic. The punchline is that the crowd thinks: “We thought he was going to say the N word, then thank God…It’s just a rape joke.” It’s a moment of relief, but really it’s much worse. It’s a commentary on political correctness, not an approval of rape. Your reaction compounds the irony. My joke on political correctness brings out the political correctness police. You know who finds that joke funny? My female manager, my ex-girlfriend (we’re still friends), and my mom, all feminists.
You mention the “reasonable” and “intelligent” Louis CK. Well, Louis has plenty of jokes about rape. Ever heard the one? “You should never rape a woman…Unless you want to have sex with her and she wont let you…Then what other choice do you have?”
Many female comics joke about rape as well. Sarah Silverman has one: “I was raped by a doctor, which is so bittersweet for a Jewish girl.” Do you understand that neither Louis nor Sarah approves of rape? Do find it necessary to send them the pages of rape statistics that you sent me?
Rape, fart, dick, murder, genocide, etc. jokes have been a part of comedy going back to 400 BC Greece. I’m jealous that Aristophanes got to live blogger-free, without people text messaging through his plays. You conveniently left out the sentences in your initial first email where you wrote, “you really stood out from the other comics.” You wanted to engage with me so you pretended to be a fan by complimenting me. Very tricky!
You completely misquoted a story I told to portray me as a misogynist or worse. There are lots of bad people out there who do evil things. I think your time would be better spent attacking them. Most of them have no sense of irony either. You clearly were not interested in having a conversation. For some reason, you chose me to ambush, and spun this article in a manipulative way.
Here’s a quote from your article: “Let’s be entirely clear here: These are grown men who get paid money to stand in front of an audience and say, quite literally, whatever they want, as long as they think it’s funny.” Yes, that’s what comedians do.
You say, “…And yet when women talk back, especially if it’s not flattering, we’re “idiots.” “ Sady, this is not a gender issue….Men who talk back during a performance are idiots too. Stand-up comedy is a performance, not a discourse. There are bouncers there whose sole purpose is to make sure our performance goes uninterrupted. Comedy is an art form. We get paid to say whatever we want, and I’ve earned that right to do so on good stages by putting in work year after year, and proving I can do it well. You have the right not to listen.
I got a Tweet from one of your readers 2 days ago saying, “someday I hope a man forcefully penetrates your asshole with their veiny cock. Rape jokes won’t be quite as funny after that.” Also, “or maybe your mother gets raped, or little sister. I don’t think you understand the culture you’re adding too.” Should I take that threat seriously? Do you condone this? Is that the kind of behavior you’re trying to motivate?
You quoted a Tweet of mine about the Boston Marathon saying, “This kind of violence in infuriating.” Yeah, it is. I think rape is awful too. Comics go to dark places to find jokes sometimes. That’s what we do. Woody Allen says, “Comedy is tragedy plus time.” I was horrified by the Boston Marathon and I still am, but I have jokes commenting on the subject now because I’m a comic and that’s my job. I say, “This Boston Marathon has made me very sad…It made me realize that my brother and I don’t do anything together anymore.” Do you think making a joke about this event means I approve of terrorism? (By the way, a couple of Boston comics have told me it’s a very good joke.)
You may hate my jokes. Well, then don’t listen to them. You have a right to your opinion. The bottom line is: I know more about comedy than you. I know more about funny than you do, and nothing was ever made funnier by political correctness.
I know a ton of funny people and I’ve never heard: “you know who we need to punch up this material? A blogger who doesn’t get irony.” We don’t disagree about rape. We don’t disagree about terrorism. We disagree about comedy. Thanks for your input.”
-Sam Morril
I couldn’t have said it any better. Or nicer.
In a nutshell…
http://martinmorrowcomedy.tumblr.com/post/49998948252/how-feminist-are-killing-feminism
Fantastic! Well done. If he doesn’t have the courage to explain or defend such “jokes”, he shouldn’t make them.
Also, let’s not forget how many men (& boys, & trans people) are either victims of rape or have someone in their lives that they love that were victims of rape. This isn’t a men vs. women issue, it’s a People Who Are Against Rape Culture vs. People Who Support Rape Culture issue.
& it’s debatable that Louis CK supported Tosh, he said himself he didn’t.
Some comedians actually spoke out against Tosh. Matt Besser (UCB co-founder) & Bob Odenkirk talked about it on Comedy Bang Bang. Besser came on as the pope & told a great joke mocking Tosh. It’s ep#168.
A terrible summary of the joke: a plane full of rapists (a priest, that football coach, & a baseketball player, I think) and Tosh is going down, and there are only three parachutes. One by one, they give excuses as to why they should get the chute – yes, “I raped those kids, but I helped lead people to god,” etc & jump out. At the end, Tosh says to the basketball player, “I guess you think you deserve the chute…” & he says to Tosh, “no, I get the parachute because I’m bigger & stronger than you, & that’s what rape is all about.” & he pushes hum out of the way & grabs the chute & jummps out, leaving Tosh to go down with the plane… it goes on from there. Give it a listen, it’s pretty great.
Stop paying money to see people who say things that offend you. You are helping pay their salary. Cut them off where it hurts: their bank accounts. That is probably the only thing they really understand.
“Making fun” of something is just that..you take something bad and create fun out of it and is a good thing. Just remind yourself that a comics intention is to make you laugh and enjoy yourself, not to help women get raped.
If you want to help cut down on rape then write articles that will help people like tips on how to protect yourself, situations to steer clear of, red flags etc…that’s helping the issue get resolved, this isn’t helping anything and is causing more drama in the world when there doesn’t need to be.
I have seen Sam Morril perform on numerous occasions, and it can’t be denied that he makes jokes that will be considered offensive by a number of people. I happen to think he’s hilarious, but that’s just one man’s opinion and it takes a lot to offend me. I also happened to be at Daniel Tosh’s show that immediately followed his controversial show last year. He opened up with something that I can only paraphrase, so here goes:
“Tonight’s jokes will cover controversial topics including, but not limited to: incest, abortion, 9/11, Kony, the Holocaust, mental and physical disability, LGBT, murder, kidnapping, slavery….and there may be a line or two about rape.”
My point…the edgy comedians today cover every sort of uncomfortable topic out there. And while no one is making jokes about the Boston terrorist attacks because they’re so fresh in our minds, give it a decade. Comedians make 9/11 jokes these days; just go to a comedy club. If every comedian had to stop making jokes about a certain topic because some self-promoting blogger writes a post that goes viral, there would be nothing left to joke about. And if you think it’s just male comedians who joke about rape, please watch any Amy Schumer or Sarah Silverman standup routine. They’re even more outrageous than Tosh.
Also, despite the author’s attempt to avoid “shitty journalism,” this article isn’t even that. It’s a blog, with a pre-formed opinion, with numerous incorrect statements, including the comment about Louis CK’s so-called “defense” of Tosh. Please re-watch his Daily Show interview.
I’m a comic and I don’t do any “rape” jokes, nor am I interested in offending anyone, but that’s just my personality and style. There’s a whole different style of comedy (which I often enjoy) that takes risks and offends, and that’s part of that style of comedy. There are plenty of bad ones and then there are some great ones – Stanhope, Attell, & CK are a few of the contemporary greats.
Comics understand when they do a joke about rape, they are taking a risk of offending, and becoming blog fodder. Ultimately they choose to make that joke, because they feel it’s their job to take that risk, and it is literally their job. That does not mean the comic making the joke, is not also horrified of the act of rape.
CK discusses at length his choice to make a joke about lessening the tabboo of child molestation in his recent Stern interview. You don’t think CK is actually condoning child molestation do you? He has two little girls, clearly he’s horrified by child rape, but that’s not the comedic angle he takes on it. Taking an angle of “child molestation is bad” is a boring angle to take, because it’s the obvious angle, and it’s how everyone clearly feels. A lot of great stand-up comes from taking a contrarian point of view, that’s just how comedy works.
There are a few more very basic problems with continuing to get so quickly offended at male comics for making “rape” jokes:
1) Female comics make rape jokes, too. Have any of them been written about lately or condemned?
2) Men get raped, too. Why are rape jokes automatically perceived as so anti-woman and misogynist?
3) There are plenty of people in the audience who find jokes about offensive topics to be cathartic and healing. Often when you make light of a dark topic, it can be cathartic. Just because you’re offended, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. What if you’re wrong? That’s why it’s subjective, there’s no right answer. There is no way to quantify how many people a particular joke is hurting vs. healing, other than the laughter that’s happening in the crowd that night. If people are laughing, it means the joke is funnier than it is offensive. If they’re not laughing, then the crowd is offended, and the comedian should stop doing that joke (or improve the quality of the joke).
Ultimately the audience decides what has crossed the line, so let the audience be the judge. When you write about the comic the next day, and you refer to comedians telling “rape” jokes, of course the comedian sounds like a misogynist asshole, but ultimately you’re taking everything out of context, and and you’re making an argument that everyone can easily agree with, which is the opposite of contrarian, and ultimately becomes a boring argument.
You almost sound proud to admit that you flipped him off twice, from the crowd. Did you look around and notice that other people were laughing? If so, why didn’t you flip them off, too? And why are you writing about, and flipping off, the OPENER? Did you ever consider that maybe, in this case, you’re the bully?
The misogyny is pretty sad but the delivery is truly pathetic. Any sentient should be offended by a routine like this.
The lines remind me of those scholastic books like ‘101 pickle jokes’. Indeed, he probably spends a lot of time gherkin off to his own material.
He’s trying to be jarring but it’s so predictable there are no dillies.
Not to pickle on him but.. you see what I mean?
I mean. Here: See if you can’t guess the endings:
“His ex-girlfriend didn’t make him use a condom! That’s huge! She was on the patch.”
(wait for it)
“Yeah. He over-inflated her and then had to get out the bicycle kit.”
“There was this one time he was having sex with this hot blonde.. But it was kind of awkward because she kept calling out another man’s name.”
…
Yeah, every time he grabbed the pullstring, she said, “I love you, Ken!”
I could keep this up all night, and unlike Morril, I wouldn’t need to use Viagra.
You see what I mean? It’s tepid. You should be offended by his attempts to bludgeon you with his ‘razor wit’.
The argument that Sam’s jokes are intended for Sam’s demographic, and therefor Sam’s demographic has a valid opinion while whiners and feminists like Sady do not doesn’t make a lot of sense.
On the surface, sure: it’s entertainment, and it is consumed by choice. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it. But you also need to acknowledge that stand-up comedy is a pretty widespread part of our culture, and to allow that it can influence people beyond the immediate audience. Is Sady’s opinion still invalid if she is harassed or assaulted by someone in Sam’s ‘target demographic’ who is repeatedly exposed to the message that victimizing women can be passed off as a joke? Is that not akin (albeit remotely) to discounting the Jews’ opinion of Hitler, since they are not his intended audience?
Confrontational, scolding approaches are clearly not an effective path to reform. Overwhelmingly, I don’t think that rape-joke tellers are trying to be assholes, just funny and edgy. And for many, these jokes are funny. But that doesn’t erase the fact that they can also be damaging, and subtly perpetuate an acceptance and tolerance of attitudes that are fundamentally unequal.
Sady’s column above is fair, measured, and genuinely aimed at dialogue and progress. David Harris’ response to it (and Sam Morril’s lack of one) makes him sound like an eight year old who got a toy taken away.
tosh never threatened to rape anyone. you can’t just accuse people of that to make your article more exciting.
1) While Morril is going on about all the “feminists” who think his joke about raping a black woman is hilarious, I’ll go ahead and assume he knows no black feminists.
2) I think it’s telling that he responded–only after you published this post, but not in the weeks he had to reply to your email.
@person1638942389
“tips on how to protect yourself” don’t prevent rape.
Think of it this way: If I miraculously find the combination of clothes to wear which make a rapist think, “Oh! She doesn’t want to be raped! Okey-dokey then, I won’t rape her!” then do you think the rapist is going to go home and watch Animal Planet?
No: the rapist’s going to go and rape someone who isn’t wearing the special combination of clothes. The rape hasn’t been prevented, it’s just been shifted.
That is, if any of the typical “tips on how to protect yourself” ever had any use whatsoever, which they pretty much never do, because they’re not so much “tips on how to protect yourself” as “reasons why we can keep blaming the victims instead of the people who actually committed the crime”.
@ David Harris, its very easy to laugh about something you will most likely never experience in your life. What if your mother, daughter, wife or sister was raped? I wonder how funny those jokes would be to you after witnessing how rape destroys their life? Interesting how most of the people rushing to defend this douchebag’s crappy ‘comedy’ are men, who will, for the very fact of their gender, will never experience or be hurt by or fear the very real threat of sexual abuse, domestic violence and rape that thousands of women feel EVERY DAY. You’re showing yourselves up as the privileged, entitled pricks you are. Congrats.
Thanks for the article, and I’m glad that you’ve had the courage to post it in the face of all the hate it’s been receiving (and I wager you kind of expected). Having read the response that Sam Morril posted on Facebook, the main thing that jumps out at me is that he doesn’t even acknowledge the whole point of your message. He doesn’t answer any of the questions you asked. And what’s more, it looks like the only reason he posted a response on Facebook was so he could try not look so bad once you documented your exchange here.
I feel like you were (hands-down) the one who dealt with this in the classy way. You went directly to the source, gave him fair warning you were planning on doing a piece about him, and even gave him a chance to engage in a dialogue with you about the issue. What did he do? He refused to engage in a dialogue with you, then tried to shame you on Facebook (rather than speaking directly to you), ignoring all of the (I might say totally valid) questions you had posed to him in the first place.
Sam Morril claims that he uses irony to speak out against things. If he genuinely wants to raise awareness about these terrible issues, and why they’re wrong, shouldn’t he be taking this feedback and making sure his irony is being effective, rather than just telling everyone who is offended that they’re too stupid to understand irony?
People link arrogance and confidence, while also linking low self-esteem and humility. I think it’s the other way around. Confidence and humility co-exist beautifully in that they lead you to be able to understand that by learning and growing and being imperfect, you are constantly becoming a better version of yourself. Low self-esteem is what breeds arrogance, because you have to externalize an image of arrogance to feel like you’re OK. I’m bringing this up because people who have a valid stance, who are completely comfortable in their skin and can confidently understand and uphold their own values don’t need to get defensive when someone tries to start a reasonable conversation with them. People who are defensive are insecure. Period. That you ask him for his perspective on something and he gets defensive is not indicative that you’re a terrible person, too dumb to understand irony, or just trying to cause trouble. It’s an indication that he’s afraid. Of what? I’m not totally sure.
“Michaelangelo’s David is offensive. He’s all naked and gross. We should cut his penis off.”
~The Catholic Church, and this blog’s author. Jesus. It’s not funny because it’s funny. It’s funny because it’s a serious subject and someone managed to make a joke about it that makes you groan. It’s called “cringe” comedy, not children’s cartoons.
And yes, comics are making jokes about the Boston Marathon. In the aftermath, voicing your grief is not inappropriate, but who the fuck would go to a comedy show that is two hours of, “and now a moment of silence for all the starving kids in Nigeria… And now a moment of silence for all the slaughter Croats… And now a moment of silence for all the cancer victims…”
Comedians make cancer funny. They make Nazis funny. They make every horrible thing that has ever happened funny. That’s their job. Yours is to make something readable, and I can guarantee you aren’t earning a living. Sucks for you, but I’m sure that’s patriarchy, and not your own lack of sentence structure and coherent writing.
Kat C thinks men aren’t raped. I know two men in my immediate family that were raped. I know more men who were raped than women. You probably do, too, Kat C. They just haven’t told you, because you don’t believe men can be raped.
“… And yet when women talk back, especially if it’s not flattering, we’re “idiots,” pigs, better off raped, or better off dead.” That’s because it’s a performance… You’re not supposed to talk back. If you don’t know that, maybe you should leave the stand-up reviews to someone better equipped. I don’t find rape jokes particularly funny but to say Tosh “threatened” the women is dishonest and cheap. He asked, “wouldn’t it be funny if she got raped, right now?”. Funny? not in my opinion, but not a threat. Comics have a right to say whatever they want and you have a right to not support them. If you have strict boundaries on content, that’s YOUR burden to bare.
Told my editor,
“I was going to confront him. Something BIG and RUDE and Embarrassing.”
” I was going to give him no possible chance to claim that he’d been
AMBUSHED, or STABBED in the back.”
” I was going to find him.”
“While still’ you know.planning to write an entire piece specifically for the fun of HUMILIATING the Guy in Public.”
The words you write have the SOUNDS of VIOLENT CHARACTER R A P E .
they are not echos.
Listen,where are they coming from.
Self Importance is a Bitch.
You, do not understand how stand-up comedy works. However you do seem to have a pretty high opinion of yourself, so I doubt I or the thousands of professional comics that agree with me will be likely to convince you of your failing. If you’d be so kind, please recuse yourself from opining on the subject of comedy and focus all future efforts on the topics of the humorless. There are plenty of them out there and your complaining is likely to be better received by your contemporaries.
So, basically this woman claims that the only “decent” people are those who agree with her viewpoints on comedy? Sounds like it defeats the purpose of comedy to me!
The problem I have with people who believe things like this is not the fact that I disagree with them. It’s alright that she doesn’t like that style of comedy, but the fact she feels the need to guilt the rest of the world into agreeing with her and disliking it as well. Being an art form, comedy has many different varieties and styles. The only people that have a right to call a piece okay or not are club owners. Why? We work for clubs, so they have that right.
There are a lot of talented “shock” comics like Doug Stanhope who are mastes of their craft and can say some deep, meaningful things.’ In a nutshell: it’s okay to disapprove of anything, but this stupid pig has no right to say anything, especially when posing as an “authority”.
All bloggers that complain about comedians are doing are trying to garner attention for their blogs.
Asking him to find something funny about rape statistics? Was that the best you could think of… You assume it would make him look like an idiot, but he’s a professional comedian, he’s trained to deflect what you say back on to you… Here, it’s easy
“Well I don’t know how funny those statistics are, but I’m starting to think that your article is going to be a bit dry.”
Apart from that, I really enjoyed your article. This is a topic of such conflict for me. I won’t get into it too much, because there are truly too many things to consider…
But basically is it because rape is so common, is that what sets it apart? Because it’s not inappropriate to joke about automotive accidents, when it is possible that someone in the audience could have a trauma related to a car crash that killed their sister? Far less common, still the same effect on the person.
Or is it because of the precarious link it has to casual misogyny?
The worst part is, that while I want to be a conscientious person, I have no control over whether I find something funny sometimes. You can laugh at something because it’s shocking, and not because you it is genuinely intelligently constructed. But that’s not even what I’m talking about. For example, this comic. https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6976170752/hCDE6A770/ It’s the most stupid little thing, and you may have to know about the context of the other similar comics, but every time I read the fourth panel I literally can’t stop myself from laughing just a little bit. That’s just an example, and obviously not the best. The point is, is it ever okay? For instance if the joke is not at the expense of victims, rather it criticises the act? Plus, black comedy is a thing too. Are you just referring to mainstream comedy/standup etc?
What it all comes down to for me is “Either it’s all okay. Or none of it is.” It is said that comedy is inherently linked to tragedy, and if you break it down the subject of a high percentage of jokes can be linked to someone’s pain. And I feel that despite how prevalent it is in society, it can be dangerous to strip just one thing out, eventually you could reduce the entire process down.
But truly I don’t know, I don’t feel I am able to decide what is appropriate. It’s such a difficult subject. I do believe in producing and promoting a world that attempts remove the precedence for sexism/violence. But is there a place for everything? Or are some things just too dangerous?
Sigh, I think feminism is very important and I’m involved in progress for womens rights. However I’m so tired of people using it to get attention and to establish how great they are. This is clearly about you, you don’t seem to be anxious about progress as much as letting people know how important your ideas are.
Wonder what exactly these men find so funny about rape? What is it exactly that tickles their funny bone so? The image in their mind’s eye of a terrified woman is funny? Do they find it “cathartic” because it validates and normalizes their fantasies about over-powering and controlling the body of an unwilling woman? Making her submit to their every violent impulse?
Many of the replies supporting the comic are very revealing; note how many of those writers can’t disagree with the point of view expressed by Sady without also making degrading comments about her and/or women in general. Note the vicious anger directed toward a woman with an opinion, feminists, and indeed all women.
I’m a bit late to this thread, it having just today been brought to my attention via a post on the science & technology & social media oriented web site Ars Technica. (referenced post found here: http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/05/facebook-to-take-a-stand-against-rape-jokes-gender-hate-speech/ ).
There is, at present, seemingly more emphasis on the specter of bullying than there is on rape. While not to detract from the efforts to suppress bullying, maybe it’s prevalence is simply due to the fact that kids are more open to recognizing a behavior as being wrong & to either change it in themselves, or to intervene on behalf of others when needed. I also strongly suspect that rape would not be the issue that it is today were bullying to be sufficiently eliminated in those now coming of age in present society.
What follows is my contribution to the discussion thread of the Ars post mentioned above:
“I am the father of a 19 year old daughter & a 17 year old son. When in conversation with them, I routinely stress that most all things we confront or encounter are some semantic shade of gray & that extremely few absolutes exist. And when in a contextual conversation with them, I routinely emphasize that one such absolute is that rape is a crime of violence. Full Stop. Rape is not to be tolerated in any of the various forms in which it presents. Full Stop. Rape is not a sexual act, but rather it is the application of sexual mechanics to a crime of violence. As such, rape should be considered to be a form of torture. Full Stop. Rape is common, tragic, and nothing associated with the commission of rape is in the least way “funny”. Full Stop.
This position on rape is non-negotiable in any context & it is impossible to over-emphasize this. One’s right to a freedom of speech which minimizes the impact or obfuscates the true nature of rape is to be acknowledged as a right & is to be accepted as a right. Never should such speech ever be left unchallenged & should never be disengaged from until that speech is shown to be abjectly baseless & wrong. Full Stop.
There’s nothing more to say on the topic, aside from having one more reason to dislike Daniel Tosh,(as if one was needed) or Sam Morril, whoever he is.”
In addition to the comment text above, I would add that Daniel Tosh’s sense of humor is about as well developed as that of your average 12 year old boy (& I may be overly generous in that appraisal). George Carlin was an inestimable master of comedy. Carlin was capable of finding & relating the humor to be found in farts. All that Tosh, & apparently Merril, & too many others are able to offer with respect to farts, or virtually any other topic, is merely malodorous. And then, of course, they laugh to let you know how clever they just were.
Rob Mautz
More than rape jokes, those were just plain old hate and cruelty disguised as jokes. Just like back in 5th grade when I thought having a laugh at the expense of kids because they were different in some way was not only unfunny but sick and cruel, so too in adulthood do I find it’s still just NOT funny. It’s bullying behavior to belittle others simply because of the ways they are different. The bully thinks people’s differences are somehow liabilities to be made fun of, and it’s okay to harm people with verbal degradation. Jerks pick aspects their victims can’t control to use as fodder for their bullying jollies. As kids these sociopaths made fun of other kids who were foreigners, or poor, or used wheelchairs, or had speech impediments. Now that they are older, it’s fashionable to abuse women, gays, or people of other races. Then we are called humorless and oversensitive because we can’t embrace being belittled and verbally abused by some dickwad for laughs. Their lack of empathy *is* the punchline, because that’s how psychopaths entertain each other. (Probably because it’s illegal for them to go blow up kittens using firecrackers.)
It’s empty juvenile humor for simple thinkers like bullies. It’s not edgy or clever, it’s just predictable and dull.
The same monotonous dullards will continue boring us until we stop supporting such unoriginal unimaginative hacks. Don’t watch their shows, don’t listen to podcasts that host them, drop the premium channels and cancel the satellite radio stations that give them a platform, and instead pirate the shit out of the content you want to see and hear. Join discussions about stand-up and make it known why this crappy material makes for mediocre comedy. Support clubs when they feature comedians who aren’t sexist douchebags. Support more women in comedy. Buy tickets and merch and albums from comics who don’t think hating and abusing women is just hilarious. Most of all, make sure the hosts of podcasts, and club/tour promoters, and TV network executives KNOW their advertisers and sponsors aren’t getting your money or your partner’s money due to shitty sexist comedy.
This way even if the hateful unfunny hacks enjoy some minor modicum of success, at least better comics will too, thanks to the encouragement they’ll get seeing an audience that craves some TRUE humor.
Real men do not make themselves feel bigger by grinding other people down. thus I conclude you are not a real man. Does that offend you? Hmmm that must make me an edgy comedian and my utterances are thus sacred. You don’t think I’m funny? then you should be anally gang raped because THAT would be funny.
Or perhaps not because abuse and offensive behavior isn’t actually funny when YOU are the butt of the joke.
what is funny about it?
If you don’t like a comedian or what someone has to say, vote with your dollar and don’t go to their shows. If people really find it distasteful, they’ll do the same. Trying to shut people down for what they’re saying however is a violation of the first amendment.
Maybe Sam’s too busy laughing at your rubbish rape statistics. I’ve heard 1 in 20 to 1 in 25 women gets raped.
I’ve never heard a feminist use these stats though – always 1 in 2, 3, 4 or 5 women are getting raped according to feminists.
As soon as a feminist shows up and opens her mouth, five times more women are getting raped – and we should all take what the feminist has to say seriously.
Why did the chicken cross the road?
Because of rape.
Sam Morril is the least funny human being ever to exist. These people actually make me feel nauseated. And the fact that he can say the Boston bombings were tragic (which they were) and yet still think it’s hilarious when 1 in 4 women are raped? That is the epitome of hypocrisy and heartlessness. He is obviously a very disturbed human being. A dark, dark, sad little man who will never, ever know love. Pathetic.
“Not So Funny: Sam Morril’s Rape Jokes and Female Comedy Fans”
Nice Story.. 🙂
I would say that I love how these topics really end up bringing out the scumbags in people, but then, I remember that these scumbags probably live around actual people, which makes me a little frightened for a human race that includes people like David Harris.
Shock comedy thrives off of the ‘oh my god, they actually said that’ reaction. When I laugh at rape jokes, it’s not because I’m envisioning a girl getting forced to have sex and thinking that is a hilarious image. I’m laughing at the ‘he just went there’ situation, along with laughing the people like you who get bent out of shape and write blog novels. Because it is you who gives him the attention.
You think you’re teaching him a lesson by quoting rape statistics like he’s never heard of actual rape. OF COURSE it’s bad, you’re not breaking new ground by saying it is. Get over yourself.
Do you REALLY think this guy wants women to be raped? Or do you think he’s just getting a reaction out of far leftists, which is boosting his name up in the media?
It’s simple. The difference is those marathon runners didn’t bring any of it upon themselves like a good percentage of your so-called victims do. That was my serious discussion-provoking answer. Humorous answer: it’s a freaking joke! In a lot of the jokes you seem to infer different meanings from which I did. I mean the punch lines are a bit vague. Maybe you’re a little too sensitive to this subject matter and/or too easily offended to perform this aspect of your job productively.
I love the jokes, they are so cool and pretty funny.
all likes funny jokes but i do not like double meaning joke and dirty joke.i like funny jokes
Nice article……..
I am 58. I think the comments in here indicate a sad state of affairs post feminism. At one time rapists were considered the lowest form of scum. A man that would hit a woman was also not a subject for jokes.
Any man who can’t feel empathty for rape victims, is not a man.
TL;DR
Comedy fans (and most adults) don’t brag about flipping off comedians on stage like a scorned teenager and they don’t need to be told why it’s ok to joke about any topic. Louis CK had a brilliant joke about 9/11. Does that mean he supports terrorism? I can’t believe I’m wasting my not even valuable time to explain this. The audience’s laughter determines what is funny so blame the human race for having a dark sense of humor towards offensive subjects or for enjoying the therapeutic value of poking fun at an issue that may have affected them directly. Please do your readers a favor and never weigh in on something you’re so uninformed on again.
trust me, the only person that’s going to leave any confrontation feeling embarrassed is you. he’s a professional comedian and will do laps around your head. he’s paid to embarrass people. don’t be stupid.
I get your point and I think the appropriate response is to walk out or put in headphones and wait for the next comic. I personally don’t think any topic should be off limits in comedy. OJ Simpson, 9/11, Hitler, and yes, rape. People think everything is funny until it strikes close to home. As the father of a teenage daughter, the statistics on sexual assault on females are pretty terrifying. And if something like that happened to my daughter, I might be very uncomfortable listening to some of Sam’s material due to the associations it would bring up. But I wouldn’t begrudge him the right to do that material or feel the need to confront him. Making any subject off limits in comedy is a very slippery slope. What are the other topics that should be verboten and what is left that would not be offensive to some segment of society?
I love comedy stuff because after watched I feel relaxed. Funny videos and funny joke play important role to reduce the stress in human life.
Bullying back a bully eh? Bad idea… If u hate him so much, ignoring him is the best thing. Bad publicity is better than no publicity!
Just for the record I’m not saying all feminists suck, I’m saying feminists like you suck!
IT’S A FUCKING JOKE!!!!! GET OVER IT!!!!!!
Another thing…. I’m in a wheelchair, I haven’t been able to walk since I was 9 years old. I love jokes that come at the expense of cripples or retards or the handicapped. I think the jokes are hilarious!
Just for the hell of it though, let’s just say I didn’t like the jokes. I’ll tell you what I wouldn’t do, I wouldn’t go bitching to the comedians that said them and tell them they shouldn’t joke about that anymore.
If I was a pussy without a sense of humor, I would just leave their set/not listen to them.
“He would look like a coward. I would look like a hero.”
^ The inner dialog of every social justice warrior actually came out in 100% literal text in this article. Shocking.
Wait, you mean fighting everything that offends you isn’t for the purpose of helping the world *gasp*, it’s about one upping people & making yourself look glorified & important? *GASP* Man, if I had the fucking time to write bloated self obsessed fluff pieces about everyone who annoys me… What a dull infuriating existence that would be.
Feminists: We know you don’t care about women. You all continue to shit on & degrade any women who don’t agree with you or fit into your indoctrinated cult. We know you exist in your own self made hierarchy merely to see who can collect the most social ‘justice’ brownie points. It’s all the shallow, vapidness of jr high school cliques & drama/gossip (which women of all backrounds seem to just LOVVVE) under the utterly pretentious guise of trying to save the world. Hahahaha. Mental illness comes in very bizarre forms these days.
I like how you present yourself as a pioneer of social justice, all the while your ego is exposing you for something far different. Nice work. “He would look like a coward. I would look like a hero.” There’s your true intentions. But he doesn’t look like a coward. And you don’t…. well, you know.
I’m waiting to hear men laughing their heads off at rape joke after rape joke after rape joke after rape joke after … in which the victim’s a man. That is all.
Boo.
Sandy Doyle is the worst. It’s just a comedy show he’s free to say whatever he wants. If you’re ultra sensitive and a baby who demands everyone abide by your beliefs you should just stay at home and not even go to a comedy club. Your rights are not more important than anyone else sockcuccah
I love the jokes, they are so cool and pretty funny.
I am a male, amateur stand up comic. As I am a man, and have never been sexually assaulted, I recognize that my opinion on this issue is uniformed in important ways (and perhaps unwanted, as a lot of men, myself included, can’t help but share their opinion on everything). Nevertheless, I wanted to leave a comment on this article because I feel I might (heavy emphasis on might) have an interesting perspective on these issues as I have performed stand up comedy and have told rape jokes before (although I cut them from my act after a come to Jesus moment with my ex girlfriend).
On the general topic of rape jokes and offensive jokes generally, I don’t know if there are easy, universal answers about what a comic can or cannot joke about . I can’t speak for all feminists (or the author), but I imagine a great deal of feminists would probably be ok with a male comic who was the victim of sexual assault joking about his experience with sexual assault, as he would be talking from his specific, personal experience and would not be making light of sexual assault generally. But I have to imagine that there are probably feminists who would not be ok with that. Also, there could conceivably be victims of sexual assault who would not be ok with that joke as they may be triggered and reminded of their own sexual assault. If the metric for whether or not a joke is told is “is there someone who is offended by this joke,” we would all be joking about how much we hate going to the dentist (sorry dentists). Which I feel is counter to everything stand up is. Stand up should be a means through which male and female comics can retell their unique, lived experiences, which are often messy and complicated.
That being said, I do understand that stand up comedians with a platform, in addition to musicians, actors, etc. are role models and have an influence on how our society advances on certain issues, including sexual assault. If the media that we consume constantly reinforces the message that sexual assault isn’t a big deal, that the victims deserve it, that false allegations are common, etc., then we will start to live out that message with predictably grim consequences. To ask that comics not joke about certain topics because they move our society (along with other aspects of the media) in a negative direction isn’t or shouldn’t be that huge of an ask. While asking comics to line draw with certain toxic subjects is admittedly more difficult, there are a plenty of comics who are capable of doing it and do do it. Louis C.K. seems pretty able to joke about race in a way which, generally speaking, doesn’t seem to rankle feathers. Hari Kandablou jokes about gender in a way that is pretty pro women. To suggest that comics are incapable of being mindful of the effect of their jokes on potential audience members is to set low expectations. By and large successful comics are very smart men and women who got to where they are precisely because they were better than their peers at reading audiences.
All that said, I don’t know where I stand on rape jokes. If you are going to joke about rape, it is your prerogative, but I will say that it frustrates me when comics complain about censorship or the first amendment when they are taken to task on social media or print publication for material others find it offensive. What I do understand is when comics get pissed when audience members actively disrupt their sets because they find material offensive. With that said, I am glad that you tried to engage him instead of disrupting his set. I hope he responds to you.